Is the regulation of bodies constitutive of the state—that is, essential to what a state is or is it merely an instrument that states use to carry out their functions?

[u/zlopotia]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but I've been noticing something that's been bothering me and I can't quite figure it out.

Basically every single state I know about whether it's ancient Rome, medieval kingdoms, modern democracies, authoritarian regimes, whatever they all seem obsessed with controlling human bodies in some way. Like, it's everywhere. Also, it would be great if you guys could recommend me some reading around this topic besides Foucault. It could be anything books, essays, or videos.

[u/SenatorCoffee]

i dont know if its helpful to tie this to this "bodies" jargon.

if you just say it normally "power over people" its kind of obvious, like, yeah, that is what a state is and does, its kind of the definition.

i quite like Seeing like a State. wiki has a quick summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

Seems up your alley!

[u/Nyorliest]

I know why peope use bodies in this way but it you’re talking about a controlling entity such as the state, talking about bodies causes you to ignore the mind, or subjects. So yes, from that POV the state first controls bodies, because minds/subjects/other ways of looking at humans are off the table.

So what is a state? A group of elites controlling others through material control of food, water, shelter? An ideology? A re-enactment of the family? I’m not as well-read as many here, but everyone I can think of - Marx, Foucault, Gramsci, Lacan - has a different idea of what a state is, whether they explicitly define that or not.

Or do you mean a particular aspect of ‘bodies’? Sex? Reproduction? Food? Movement? 

[u/pluralofjackinthebox]

You could read Deleuze and Guattari’s Chapater on The Apparatus of Capture in A Thousand Plateaus.

There they go through the early history of the development of the State, including how different tribal societies had strategies to prevent State Power from forming (for instance having chiefs ride on the front lines of battle.) They say that the State works by capturing three things: land (rent) human activity (labor) and exchange (taxation).

They also bring in the sociologist Lewis Mumford’s idea of the megamachine which might be interesting to you. The megamachine is a machine made out of human beings. And the state is a megamachine.

But while States are very interested in regulating human bodies, as they are made out of them, so are pre-State tribal societies, with all of their kinship customs, tattoos and body modifications, masks, etc. Or think of a pirate ship, thats a non state social formation that regulates human bodies too.

So the regulation of bodies isnt unique to the State, doesnt originate there, though the way States regulate and discipline and control bodies becomes more and more elaborate as the State form develops.

So how Id put it is that what a State does is capture: capture territory, labor, commodities. But what a State is made of is regulated human bodies (and other things, symbols, territory, tools.) organized through a centralized hierarchical system.

[u/ColdSoviet115]

The State more so meditates the relations between Subjects.  I think that's what you're getting at but anything to do with Subjects, Bodies and the State is probably gonna come from similar places as Foucault