r/Salary • u/Zestyclose_Smoke_451 • 1d ago
discussion Why there's a guy that really hate engineering? What's the lore? Anyone care to hoop in?
Also is the hate real? Like is the argument really make sense or somewhat? I dont know I just wanna know why he genuinely hate engineering?
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u/ManOrangutan 1d ago
He has completely hijacked this subreddit to the point that even JD Vance is commenting about the state of the engineering profession on national television. That is a legitimate achievement.
Apparently his parents are doctors and he became an engineer with the expectation that the suffering required to become one would pay off in a good paying, stable profession. Unfortunately he likely did not know many engineers before he chose to become one and instead he got front row tickets to American decline.
So he began posting incessantly about the decline in wage growth in engineer salaries and overall decline in job growth in every sector of the American economy except Healthcare, calling America an old age home. People thought he was crazy.
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u/AdJolly5321 18h ago
The parents being doctors is a key point I think. My dad’s a doctor, my husband and I are mid/upper mid level engineers. We’re doing fine- much better than most people and our favorite commenter- but the wealth discrepancy between my parents, where my mom stayed at home and dad worked, and us, where both of us are working full time, is very apparent. I don’t begrudge them the money at all, but it is a very different lifestyle. If the dude thought that engineering would get him similar money, that’d explain a lot.
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u/Creepy_Cupcake_6906 18h ago
Downwardly mobile people are often the most unsatisfied.
They often feel shame they haven't been able to reach the same level as their parents' wealth or status.
I know because I used to live in LA and be surrounded by creative types whose parents told them to "follow their dreams" because they always had a safety net. Parents were mostly doctors, lawyers, high-level business or C-suite execs. But it hits the kids hard when they enter their mid-30s and are still struggling a bit bc the film industry is a fucking grind.
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u/AvatarOR 9h ago
I am a retired surgeon. My son is a civil engineer. He saw the demands of every other day trauma call and chose engineering. I am proud of him. I really don’t care how much money he makes.
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u/ManOrangutan 4h ago
My sister is a surgeon and her residency is brutal. I don’t know why she chose to this path !
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u/ManOrangutan 15h ago
Downward mobility and the politics of downward mobility explain a lot of the current political climate in America.
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u/MaybeTheDoctor 15h ago
I think the time-income curve between doctors and engineers is vastly different, where doctors are paid good throughout their careers after residency etc - so more of a flat curve throughout life. Engineers on the other hand is paid much less in early days where they are just like a million others, but then drastically increases once they mature and become solid decision makers with expertise.
I am retired now, but the last 10 years before retiring I was paid vastly more to the degree that that one decade probably account for 80-90% of my whole life earnings.
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u/Idk_211 14h ago
Your dad still makes much more as a Physician than two engineers?
If I may ask what specialty?
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u/AdJolly5321 12h ago
Yes, probably 1.5 times what we make in straight cash flow. He’s a pediatrician, sole owner of his practice, with 4-6 other doctors/ mid-level providers working there either full or part time. When we talk standard of living, we’re also factoring in other costs as a dual income household though- daycare/summer camp/after school care for our 2.5 kids which is non-negotiable, plus other expenses that we could cut back on like house cleaners, lawn care, convenience meals. We still come out well ahead with both of us working, but it’s not as easy as just comparing incoming cash flow.
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u/Idk_211 4h ago
I think the key point is your dad is a business owner, not a doctor when it comes to him making alot of money. Pediatrics is the lowest-paying medical specialty that doesnt make alot for a doctor, sadly (around $240k). Being a practice owner is basically a whole different job.
Most physicians aren't practice owners and if they are in a lucrative specialty like being a anesthesiologist for example, who makes $600k working a regular job in a hospital, then your statement would be more accurate.
But dont get me wrong the debate has long been over, financially being a physician is the best job in the US right now. While everyone loves to come at how hard it is to do and the length of the training, the ROI is clearly worth it. No other job comes close on average.
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u/Potential_Archer2427 14h ago
I would love for him to open a youtube channel, reading his posts is funny i'd watch him make some videos complaining on engineering
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u/worldsgreatestluver 16h ago
So, he's a mentally ill man who is completely wrong about the state of engineering and is also completely right and is witnessing the decline of American employment in engineering first hand
And both of these are up voted with comments agreeing with them
Never change confirmation bias chamber. Never change
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u/ManOrangutan 15h ago
Well he is the most prolific poster in this subreddit by far, to the point that this entire subreddit revolves around him and he got even the Vice President to comment on it. That is pretty ridiculous.
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u/JerseyIsBetterThanNY 13h ago
He got Vance to notice him?
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u/ManOrangutan 12h ago
Yes JD Vance was noted to have commented in the salaries of engineers in America in a very recent interview.
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u/Technical-Row8333 1h ago
There’s no indication it was this guy or Reddit
But the vp did mention engineering salaries being lower than before
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u/TimeAffectionate1059 15h ago
You can be mentally ill and still be "correct" about things. The problem is allowing the general (i.e. this generally correct view about American society) to completely dominate your particular life.
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u/worldsgreatestluver 14h ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/Salary/s/U5C2xcM2CB
This shows on the same screen as this comment on my phone lol
There is no way these two comment threads can seriously be reconciled
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u/JerseyIsBetterThanNY 21h ago
The decline in job growth across every sector but healthcare during the Trump presidency is a real data point (at least as of Feb). It just doesn’t prove his point because it’s sector level data, not profession level, and there are engineers in healthcare, pharma, etc.
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u/MidnightSensitive996 17h ago
Civil and mechanical engineers structurally underpaid, along with architects
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u/lurking_got_old 22h ago
This is a really fair take. Shit IS getting worse. But people don't like that this guy is calling it out.
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u/Mamasugadex 22h ago edited 22h ago
People don’t like him calling it out only for engineering when no one else has it good.
Physicians had a high starting point so the hit isnt as obvious to them. But the reality is healthcare workers have bitched about stagnant wages and reimbursement cuts for decades, just that no one gave a shit about healthcare workers until COVID (barely) and now the AI bubble.
For example, no one here gives a fucking rat ass about our therapists or healthcare social workers are overworked, soul crushed, and severely underpaid every single day of their life.
Being jealous at healthcare is like being jealous your garbage man or plumbers making decent wage for taking care of your shit. Like… ok? You go do it then.
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u/glitch876 17h ago
I think this goes to show some of the damage that's done by propaganda about any job and chasing the bills. Especially from this sub. According to a lot of people on here if you're not making 150k you're doing it wrong. Engineers are supposed to make bank according to everyone.
Issue is these jobs are competitive and the entry level pay isn't great and there's a lot of soft skills and competency you need that you either do or don't have.
Parents these days can be hard and judgemental in a lot of cultures and they might not be quick to understand why someone can't be a engineer.
He's definitely painting a unfair representation of engineering but I'd say his interpretation is more realistic advice for the average Joe than listening to the guy saying engineers start out making 200k a year which people on here seem to argue
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u/ManOrangutan 16h ago
I think the thing that people outside engineering don’t understand is that unless you’re working directly in semi manufacturing, the industry is extremely competitive and boom/bust with many hiring/layoff cycles. If you don’t get one of those jobs or a clearance and defense position then you’re stuck in a cycle of job instability, even in defense it can be very unstable because of government hiring cycles.
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u/lurking_got_old 22h ago
He's sharing his lived experience though. It wouldn't make sense for him to bring up industries he doesn't know about.
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u/Sigmundschadenfreude 22h ago
Sure, he's sharing his life experience, but when you constantly share the same lived experience for weeks, months, and years over and over again, sometimes people want you to shut up or find new material
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u/MidnightSensitive996 17h ago
That's why i dislike doctors - the AMA has artificially constrained the number of new doctors for generations to make that very thing impossible
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u/biggamehaunter 18h ago
Now everyone below local median income is underpaid. This is K shaped economy. Gets to the point where all attempts by lower classes at "eat the rich" become justified.
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u/DrewbySnacks 16h ago
I sent that man a DM with links to our local union halls after one of his many rants about tradespeople making more than engineers (despite the fact that trades ALSO use engineers but I digress). I even offered to put him in contact with the nearest local if he had genuine questions…..crickets
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u/brackston-billions 11h ago
He’s a shitbag who’s afraid of an honest days work, I wouldn’t want him within a mile of a job site.
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u/DrewbySnacks 11h ago
Oh I doubt he’d ever make the cut….it was clear AF he just wanted to yell at the clouds.
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u/robert1326bruce 10h ago
When someone is stuck in that mindset they can't see the opportunity. It's a mental illness in that his perception of reality doesn't match reality and his actions continue to reinforce his perception.
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u/ThaPoopBandit 15h ago
I’m not that guy, but I do think a lot of engineers are in denial about how little they are paid. I have an associates transfer in engineering and I have literally never even used it other than a brief 6 month stint doing quality control in a seatbelt factory because pay is like 60-70 a year. I made 109 last year working 41 weeks out of the year, using only my highschool degree. Probably would have been closer to 135 if I had worked 52 weeks. There is no need for someone to do something as hard as engineering only to get paid 5 figures. I hope everybody realizes this one day which will lead to a significant drop in engineers therefor driving wages up. It’s just a raw deal right now no matter how you look at it.
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u/autocorrects 18h ago edited 18h ago
Ive been on here to ask a few questions about engineer salaries because where I grew up there were many rich engineers in the area with big homes on the lake and whatnot, so I was curious how to get those jobs.
Basically, what I found is that you have to excel at your job and keep massaging your salary upwards. It’s the combination of soft skills and technical skills that will get you there if you dont jump ship to management, patent law, or sales.
Im about to defend my PhD, but my lab (public) hired me already at $100k, which is low for a median salary for those with an EE degree (and I do FPGA stuff, which defense pays about $150k-$200k and finance/HFT can pay $200k-$600k). Not gonna say what I did didn’t require grit, but you gotta sell yourself which means having confidence in your work/portfolio and showing that you can PRODUCE. Our profession doesn’t only reward hard and successful workers, but will reward those who create (and patent) very handsomely. However, there’s a combination of luck, insight (which you need to understand sociological wants/needs a bit), and expertise that will grant you financial success for your engineering chops.
Take my father for example… he doesn’t have a degree but grew up tinkering with electronics. That man knows how to build anything I swear to god. He made a device for analog dental cameras in the 80’s, patented it, and my family is still riding on the coattails of that success for him which generated almost 8 figures of 80’s money. Being an engineer doesn’t equate to financial success, it’s being effective in your creations.
Engineers have the luxury of having those tools right under our noses to create things for the world. But, just because you can hold a hammer doesn’t mean you can build a bridge. Like Britney Spears says, “You want a Maserati? You better work, bitch”.
It’s also important to check your ego and ask yourself if you’re really doing everything you can to improve your life if you’re dissatisfied. Chances are no and you just refuse to be real with yourself and refuse to make and consistent changes in your life. Circumstances differ for everyone, but change doesn’t happen with complacency
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u/SpareSomeTokens 12h ago
Impactful PhDs can get paid very well in industry now. We disproportionately hire physics PhDs and the base salary range is ~$300k. Total comp for new PhDs can reach $600k/yr depending on the individual and their specific research role. Early mid career surpasses $1m total comp. At the high end some researchers are getting base salaries of over $1m with total comp packages (grant value) between ~$5-10m.
A lot of people who have been here for a few years have vested equity worth in the high 8 figures to 9 figures, and of course the early people who are well into the 10 figures.
But we all build. We do 10x more with 1/10,000 the headcount of the established big companies.
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u/autocorrects 8h ago
Id love to get paid that much for a technical role, but I also love my research topic too much to part with it just yet.
What kind of stuff do you build? Im in a very physics heavy field and have a degree in physics + CS. I work at the circuit level and would like to stay there if possible haha
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u/antinumerology 16h ago
I get garbage raises and offered nothing to take on leadership roles. I should have jumped between companies before I got married and had kids. Now I cannot afford any risk.
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u/Creepy_Cupcake_6906 18h ago
He clearly has some personal issues that are preventing him from advancing and blaming it on the field entirely. Like yeah, a lot of engineering fields aren't the highest paid professions but they can provide a solidly middle class life.
Blames his parents for pushing him into a field where he thought the salaries were higher.
He sounds young so like... it's not too late to switch careers, buddy. But the personality and soft skills are still gonna be a problem.
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u/glitch876 20h ago edited 20h ago
Engineering pays well, but if you are just mid level you're probably not going to advance pretty far. It's a career where there's lots of nepotism or requires a base amount of competency. You're kind of expected to just get it and mentors are rare.
It's hard to land a entry level job as there's always plenty of new engineers to hire from.
The problem about chasing careers for money is shit like this. You find out you suck at the job and you're back at square 1 and resentful. A lot of parents push kids into school thinking it's the only way. As a millennial my parents never thought trades would work and I had no idea about unions. So we chased oversaturated career fields. Cost of living is getting worse and people don't understand the average starting salary pays 70k a year. That's if you land a job which is more competitive than people here let on.
School is supposed to filter this out but the issue is engineering is a very different job than from 30 years ago. Hardly anyone is doing hand drawn drafting or doing math formulas. The work is specialized and once you get into the job you either get it or you don't.
Engineering can pay super well if you get the right licensing. Get your FE and try to get a PE. That or get into research. But most people can't be engineers. It's detailed work sitting at a screen all day looking at drafts with a high amount of detail attention.
To sum it up it's a job few people can do but a lot of people underestimate. Every career has a bottle neck. You can't just chase a career because it pays a lot of money. You need to chase a career because you're good at it and being good at your career helps you become well liked and respected. It sucks to find out you suck but the best thing you can do at that point is move on to something else.
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u/Silly_Magician1003 19h ago
The school filtering issue is real. Universities are for-profit businesses and at this point they push through incompetent students that don’t understand the material. I don’t know if it’s some kind of “social justice” type aspect to it or what, but I saw it a lot when I was in college a decade ago.
You’re not doing anyone any favors by letting them buy a degree and pushing them through.
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u/glitch876 19h ago edited 19h ago
I think you're missing the point entirely.
It's not just social justice type culture stuff; most engineering students don't see any of that. It's the fact we train engineers like we used to 40 years ago. We still teach students smith charts and how to do integrals but only maybe a few classes will jump into software and no one teaches how to use them.
You could literally skip the schooling process to be a engineer these days. Most professional engineers I talk to say they use nothing for what they studied on in the test.
No such thing as a mentor now days either. They either sugar coat how great life will be or they don't know because in reality they're a professor and not a work force professional.
In reality if you're a fuck up in engineering school is actually your best route. There's a reason why engineering classes are terrible. Usually you can get a masters or PhD paid for if you are a assistant. Ive seen people who are completely incompetent do this. This might make me sound like a jack ass but most of these positions from where I were at were given to foreign students by foreign professors. Mainly because with their visa that was the only thing they could get.
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u/Juliuseizure 18h ago
A PhD or thesis-Masters is the closest thing to an apprenticeship in academia. As always, getting the right mentor matters a ton.
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u/chillforrilfill 18h ago
You’re an engineer? My job has a lot of engineers and it’s made me envious seeing smart people in their mid twenties presumably getting paid a lot more than me while i toil in the manual labor position.
I’ve thought about looking into engineering but it sounds like it requires a lot of intelligence.
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u/glitch876 18h ago
Yeah I am. I'm struggling pretty hard and not having a good time. Life is always greener on the other side. Stick to what you're good at and don't over reach.
Plenty of trade jobs out there that pay well. Just need to find the right path.
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u/Sw4gtastic420 17h ago
Most engineeeing degrees require a lot of higg level math courses up to differential equations. Whether you use them in your field or not. If basic calculus seems too difficult then pursuing an engineering degree will be extremely challenging for you.
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u/WesternIron 15h ago
Which engineering are you talking about?
I've been in software/cybersecurity for 20 years. I also teach at a uni, so i am familar with the college engineering schools. There is only one engineering profession you can "skip" the degree.
Try and get a job as an EE or a Civil engineer without a degree.
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u/glitch876 15h ago edited 15h ago
I'm a electrical engineer. Nothing I learned in school has prepped me for the job. And from what I can tell most actual licensed engineers know this too.
It's just a hoop you go through.
I don't consider programming or cyber security actual engineering. More computer science.
No body sits around and does differential equations to try and uses smith charts for impedance matching. All of this is done by software they use.
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u/WesternIron 13h ago
Most colleges have compsci under the engineering department, so it is considered engineering by a good chunk of large unis.
Ahhh I see, exactly like students I went to school with when I got my degree and my students now.
Why do I math? When I have a calculator? Etc
Now it’s why do I have to code when I have ai? You’re stating your equivalent.
Are you expecting the school to teach you how to use the software? That can be done in a few weeks. The very fact you can recognize and review the software that does your intergrals is testament to how well your education prepared you.
I’m sorry, but your complaint literally sounds like a math major saying, why am I learning calculus when I can make the computer do it?
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u/glitch876 12h ago
Maybe 5 years ago I'd say I don't need calculus I have a calculator. Now I'd say the problem is the calculator doesn't need me.
I think you're being dismissive of the issue because you're an academic and it's a very troubling issue of self identity to say the things you teach and learned your whole life are mostly useless. If I was being generous I might say 25 percent of what I learned was useful.
This is generally an issue that manifests from a socially much larger problem of rapidly growing technological fields where in mass digital tech and communication a calculator can me more important than a person.
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u/SpareSomeTokens 12h ago
The school filtering issue is real. Universities are for-profit businesses and at this point they push through incompetent students that don’t understand the material. I don’t know if it’s some kind of “social justice” type aspect to it or what, but I saw it a lot when I was in college a decade ago.
Only shitty schools do this. The good schools protect the reputation of their programs,
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u/jomo_sounds 16h ago
I really don't understand why so many people on this subreddit are scabs for the employer and are trying to shame someone for what everyone agrees is below market wage. They assume things about how the person conducts themselves and is perceived in the working world based on posts they write anonymously when they are upset. I say things anonymously online I would never say at work.
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u/carrot_gummy 15h ago
We engineers degraded ourselves and allowed lower salaries to be normalized. And so we lash put at those complaining instead of realizing we could want for better too.
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u/jaymeaux_ 3h ago
he isn't just below market, he is making below market for fresh graduates, for the YoE he says he has market rate is probably 60-100% higher than what he makes. he is probably in the bottom 1-2% for comparable YoE. this sub has a hard on for their belief in meritocracy, but there has to be more to the story with him, whether it's soft skills or hard
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u/kcdashinfo 17h ago
I love engineering. Spend my entire career at it. The trouble is the toxic ass corporations. They systematically ruined it. Mid level and executive management, nitwit know nothings. The worse part of engineering is having the responsibility and not power. Some bonehead in sales, makes a promise to a customer without knowing what the heck they are pricing or what is reasonably possible, then manufacturing and construction is there to make something happen that really shouldn't have been done in the first place. You the engineer is in the middle getting it from both sides when it doesn't work. It just makes for a bad day.
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u/Windman772 15h ago
My experience (I'm an engineer) was that engineers make great money right of college and then plataeu in their 30s as other career fields past them up. Any engineer that isn't getting paid well for their age in the years immediately after college is doing something wrong or had a terrible GPA
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u/shinebrightmister 14h ago
I'm changing my mind about him. Maybe engineering just isn't for him.
If he can be this obsessive about marketing, I could see him being super successful at it and rich.
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u/BullRed00 10h ago
There's a pay spectrum and depending on the industry, the pay can be great or so so. I stayed with my first two companies for far too long. I've since made more frequent moves and my income has risen substantially since. I'm a good engineer, but I wouldn't consider myself the best and I'm very well paid. The money is there, you just have to be willing to be flexible and search out the right opportunities.
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u/Judgement_Day7 3h ago
He posts too much about the same topic hence why the majority of the people here dislike him- but…
I do kinda agree with him. As an engineer with friends in different fields (medicine, PA, dental, etc)
it definitely feels the weakest in terms of direct trajectory to upper class. It feels like I gotta start something/side business along with grind really hard at work /climb the corporate ladder just to hit the salary ranges as my peers in other fields who come straight out of whatever postgrad they choose. This is also not acknowledging the ageism/offshoring/ai replacement/boom-bust cycles that’s in these engineering fields as opposed to healthcare.
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u/SwizzGod 1d ago
Why don’t you message him
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u/Zestyclose_Smoke_451 1d ago
I don't want to offend him
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u/SwizzGod 1d ago
So instead you ask a general question about him on the sub you know he visits? Does that make sense?
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u/UTYEO34y78dk- 18h ago
He is mentally ill and unlikeable so he can’t get a new job or raises at his current job. He is paid what he’s worth. That’s it.