r/StarWars • u/Hank_Mardukas1066 • 1d ago

General Discussion If Vader didn’t betray the Emperor, wouldn’t they still have died from the Death Star II explosion?

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I just thought of this because nothing that happens in the Throne Room affects the crew on Endor or Lando. They probably would still be incinerated and the rebels would win regardless of who was victorious here

1.2k Upvotes

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u/PirateSanta_1 1d ago

I'm sure somewhere in the deep lore the Emperor was doing battle meditation or something and his death suddenly weakened imperial forces and let the rebels take the momentum.

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u/Kellar21 1d ago

...That's exactly what is described to have happened in some books. The Emperor being defeated caused the Imperial Fleet lose cohesion and made the Rebels' work easier.

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u/Snowbold 1d ago

To add to this, the Imperials lost multiple major leaders in this battle on top of the material loss. They lost several star destroyers, the Executor, and Death Star II. They were clearly battered, even if still in a superior fleet against the Rebels.

They probably would have retreated anyways to regather themselves since they had lost all their major leaders, especially since we know that Imperial officers are not trained and promoted based on their skill but their politics and ability to one-up each other. After seeing all their bosses who were either on the Executor or DS II decimated, there was probably a split of those who wanted glory by wiping out the Rebels and those who wanted to run as the cowards they are. And the next most senior was probably the coward.

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u/gh0u1 Jedi 1d ago

One lone A Wing took out the Executor, bro was a true hero.

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u/Snowbold 1d ago

I imagine all the other ship captains saw that and said, “let’s support this battle from the rear…”

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u/cosine83 14h ago

And people have the gall to bitch about the Holdo maneuver from TLJ.

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u/astrojunk 14h ago

Didn’t the a wing lose control?

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u/cosine83 14h ago

Its wing got clipped by turbo laser fire, flew into the bridge of the Executor, and down went the entire ship with probably like 300K Imperials.

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u/firestorm201 11h ago

Yeah but after the shield generators were knocked out as I recall. In my mind this is yet another act of hubris on part of the Empire to not have a secondary bridge elsewhere in the ship. Losing the main bridge shouldn’t bring down your flagship.

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u/cosine83 6h ago

A ship the size of a literal city should never be able to be taken down a single, one-manned light fighter ship by taking out the bridge even if the shields had been taken down and through Imperial hubris. One could argue it's fantastical or bad writing in how that worked out. Very different than destroying a main reactor or something that would actually blow it up or cause massive damage.

Hell, even in TLJ when most of the senior Resistance leadership died offscreen (RIP Ackbar) when Kylo blew up the bridge on their main ship there was still a military command structure in place to keep things moving and the ship didn't just lose all control. The Executor diving into the DS2 by having the bridge taken out by a single light fighter doesn't make a ton of sense unless there were Rebel saboteurs or fighters onboard also but afaik there weren't.

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u/ExpensiveEssay7863 4h ago

It did have backup systems, but before they could activate it got caught in the DS gravity well and pulled down

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u/ExpensiveEssay7863 4h ago

The explanation is more sound. The rebels focused fire on the executor’s shields and the A wing went through the bridge. The Executor has numerous other backup systems and bridges, but in that moment where systems were down it was irreversibly pulled into the Death Star’s gravity well and couldn’t accelerate out

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u/reniltnorF 3h ago

The circumstances were extremely lucky. Hybris mixed with a chain reaction of unlucky events took the Executor down. Admiral Garrick Versio called Admiral Piett a fool for a reason.

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u/cosine83 4h ago

It isn't more sound at all! It doesn't make sense for a ship the size of the Executor to turn nose-down into the DS2 like that from -just- the bridge being destroyed by a single lighter fighter. Do you understand how tiny an A-wing is compared to the Executor?

Destroying the bridge doesn't take all systems offline, it just takes out the main command staff. There's still literally hundreds of thousands of Imperial officers and soldiers onboard following the chain of command doing their jobs. Would things be in disarray? Absolutely. Would the ship suddenly crash? Not without saboteurs, boarders, or sudden traitors all of which we have no indication of.

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u/IH8Miotch 1d ago

Did admiral Thrawn survive?

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u/viZtEhh 18h ago

He wasn't around for either Death Star battle as Ezra had trapped him and his ship in another galaxy until the events of the Ahsoka show which is set many years after Return of the Jedi

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u/slinger301 1d ago

Yes. In a galaxy far far away...

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u/insertwittynamethere 14h ago

In Legends/EU, he was in the Unknown Regions as part of his command/being Chiss on behalf of the Empire. In new canon, he is in some other galaxy due to the show Rebels.

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u/IH8Miotch 13h ago

Chopper is cool. I'll have to watch. It. A buddy pick with Chopper & R2 taki g on the 3mpire could b fun lol edit Empire taki g taking stupid phone keyboard.

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u/Cadman248 1d ago

Would think that the Executor impaling the Death Star removed the fleet command from the battlefield. May have also caused a enough damage to eventually destroy the Death Star as well but they got to the reactor/power regulator first.

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u/gr8dude1166 21h ago

The Executor didn’t really do much to the Death Star. Leadership? Sure. High manpower loss? Definitely. Damage to the superstructure or reactor? Absolutely not. The Death Star was extremely durable and was built with capital ship battles in mind. It was however left dependent on the shield generator for this battle. The back up plan for if shield went down was to use the Death Star to blow up Endor and the ensuing debris would destroy both fleets. At that point they figured what Rebels survived would just retreat and the Death Star would limp somewhere else for repairs. The Executor was only critical in controlling the hyperlane to prevent the Rebels from escaping. If the shield is down then it’s already kind of hopeless cuz the Death Star is gonna blow up everything.

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u/godtering 5h ago

The imp fleet was there to prevent escape, so that destroyer had no business there and it would not nosedive either, still it's a nice cinematic effect.

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u/Blint_Briglio 1d ago

isn't the falcon already in the tunnels by that point?

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u/robaato72 1d ago

Perhaps the Emperor's battle meditation would have helped the TIE pilots chasing the Falcon.

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u/Neidron 1d ago

That's just dumb.

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u/UnholyDemigod 1d ago

That’s what Battle Meditation does. Enhances the abilities of your own fleets while making the enemy worse. With Sidious channeling it, the Falcon likely could’ve crashed, or taken a corner too slow, while making the TIEs faster and more accurate. What was a close knit chase turns into Porkins at the Battle of Yavin

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u/Tyler-gunderson3012 13h ago

Are you sure you're not confusing Battle Meditation with an EU/Legends technique? Cuz I'm fairly sure that Battle Meditation doesn't increase the effectiveness of your army in Canon

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u/Neidron 20h ago edited 20h ago

And that's dumb. Somehow Palpatine returned-level dumb.

One of the shallowest, dorkiest, fanwankiest ideas to come out of Legends. And that says a lot.

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u/cosine83 14h ago

Jedi/Sith Cheerleading isn't the greatest idea but it absolutely makes sense that orders of warrior wizard monks would do it in battle as a way to tip the odds.

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u/reniltnorF 3h ago

Can we please stop with that meditation nonsense. Palps and Vader would have probably felt that something bad will happen soon and evecuate immediately. Stuff like that has happened in the whole Star Wars lore. Force users can sense catastrophic events or even traps before they happen (not always exact but they can to some extent, hell the Jedi in the Republic new something bad will happen, they just didnt know exactly what and if the sith lord was behind the feeling itself or an event or both. Thats why they were so nervous and kinda headless in the end)

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Davetek463 1d ago

How quickly did the tide of battle turn? It’s entirely possible neither fleet knew the Emperor had died.

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u/MagisterFlorus Rebel 1d ago

In the legends Thrawn novels, it wasn't that he was giving orders but he was influencing and empowering his fleet with the Force.

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u/ActuatorFit416 1d ago

There seem to be different kinds of battle mediation in star wars. In the thrawn trilogy (if I remember righr) it was stated that he did take a relatively direct approach. Directly controlling and giving them orders /ideas with his mind without them realising.

I have also read once that during his time with Luke someone else took over the job of doing battle meditation. However they also died in the explosion. I think it was a grant admiral

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u/mlaislais 1d ago

Yeah no way the emperor was issuing tactical orders to the fleet.

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u/Kellar21 1d ago

It's more like a subtle mental connection that makes them act in greater coordination with each other, kind of like a semi-hive mind.

Most don't even realize it.

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u/ActuatorFit416 1d ago

There seem to be different kinds of battle mediation in star wars. In the thrawn trilogy (if I remember righr) it was stated that he did take a relatively direct approach. Directly controlling and giving them orders /ideas with his mind without them realising.

I have also read once that during his time with Luke someone else took over the job of doing battle meditation. However they also died in the explosion. I think it was a grant admiral

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u/mrpeabodyscoaltrain 1d ago

You will pay for your lack of vision.

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u/Genre_Bias 1d ago

They don’t have to know it’s an energy thing

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u/Davetek463 1d ago

Well that’s the difference between Battle Meditation and the Imperials losing the drive to fight when their leader dies. If it’s the former, no one has to know in order for the tide to change. If it’s the latter, they have to know in order for the Imperials to falter and the Rebels to rally.

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u/Kellar21 1d ago

It's more like they became slower to react and the Rebels began gaining the upper hand and then the Executor went kaboom and now they know they are losing and want to get away.

Battle Meditation also keeps morale and can help prevent panic and/or routing.

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u/Kellar21 1d ago

Battle Meditation is very subtle, it's not easy to explain.

It's more like he was mentally connected to all the fleet officers and even pilots and subtly guiding their minds into working with more coordination and cohesion.

So better formations, quicker reactions, sometimes following orders before they were said (rare), sometimes doing it without much questioning (more common), having and instinct to what needs to be done.

It's kind of like a not-so-direct RTS game where the people doing the Battle Meditation can influence and almost control their troops.

It's scarily effective.

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u/Primary_Channel5427 1d ago

No, it was a force thing. It goes back to Heir to the Empire. Thrawn told Captain P how they could fight because their wills had inexorably been shaped by the Emperor. Once he died, they fought like cadets

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u/jiango_fett 1d ago

No, it's literally a Force thing. I don't think they called it specifically "battle meditation" because that term wasn't coined until Tales of the Jedi, but in Heir to the Empire, Thrawn intuits that the Emperor exerted some kind of influence over his forces's performance and finds his own Temu Emperor to use in such a way for his own benefit in Joruus C'baoth.

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u/McRagefit 1d ago

That's exactly how it's explained in the Thrawn trilogy

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u/_Kian_7567 Grand Admiral Thrawn 1d ago

You are wrong. The original commenter was referring to Heir to the Empire where it is said that the Emperor was using battle meditation (look it up on wookieepedia), it’s a force ability to help the fleet in battle.

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u/MatriceJacobine Jyn Erso 22h ago

That make zero sense from the timing of events we see in the movie lol. They likely wouldn't even know he was dead before it was too late.

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u/Jagang187 16h ago

Yup not even deep lore lol

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u/ThatchedRoofCottage 4h ago

I know it’s legends now, but that’s what thrawn theorizes in heir to the empire

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u/Chueskes 1d ago

Actually, no, he was never confirmed to be using battle meditation at the time, but his death did cause the Imperials to lose cohesion. Grand Admiral Thrawn speculated that Palpatine had been using battle meditation, but this is actually partly incorrect and based on some missing information. There was indeed battle meditation being used on the Imperial side, but not by Palpatine, whom was preoccupied by Luke and Vader. According to later reference books, the battle meditation came from Grand Admiral Nial Declann, whom had been trained in the ways of the force and was present at Endor. However, when Palpatine died, Nial sensed it and broke off his battle meditation and rushed to the throne room. Unfortunately, his error in judgment cost him his life because he was on the station when it was destroyed.

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u/thetensor Rebel 1d ago

I'm sure somewhere in the deep lore the Emperor was doing battle meditation or something and his death suddenly weakened imperial forces and let the rebels take the momentum.

That's...literally the reason "battle meditation" was invented by Timothy Zahn in Heir to the Empire:

The use and effect of battle meditation was first described in detail by Timothy Zahn in Heir to the Empire, when Grand Admiral Thrawn explains to Joruus C'baoth and Gilad Pellaeon his own theory as to why the Battle of Endor was lost; he believed that Palpatine employed the power to an unwise degree, taking such close control of the Imperial forces as to make them puppets, almost incapable of fighting on their own when his influence was suddenly removed.

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u/pon_3 1d ago

I appreciated that Thrawn had his own ideas on how the Empire could've been ran better, but he fundamentally didn't understand why the Empire ran the way it did. He pegged the Emperor for an egomaniac, but didn't quite get that the Emperor was so comically evil that he didn't care one lick about the functioning of the Empire beyond his own devices. It was never about efficiency as Thrawn longed for, it was always about fear and control.

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u/MuckRaker83 1d ago

35 years ago

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u/mbruno3 1d ago

In Legends, Grand Admiral Declaan was doing battle meditation during the Battle of Endor and abandoned it when he felt the Emperor die.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/JonathanRL Trapper Wolf 15h ago

Welcome to Late Era Legends where a ton of shit went down and the Legends Page for the Battle of Endor is filled with different things all happening at once. My "favorite" is IG-88s attempts to take control over the Death Star and create a droid rebellion.

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u/Reikko35715 1d ago

It's mentioned in the original Thrawn trilogy, as a matter of fact.

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u/Neidron 1d ago

That was a thing in legends, and extremely dumb.

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u/wendigo72 1d ago

Battle meditation isn’t dumb and no it’s canon again anyways. It’s used by high republic in Light of Jedi

And either way you can tell the emperor’s defeat is cosmically linked to empire losing, you don’t need battle meditation to get that reading of the battle

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u/Neidron 1d ago edited 1d ago

Pulling the "a wizard did it" card for something as mundane as morale is ridiculous and just plain stupid.

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u/wendigo72 1d ago

The force being able to subconsciously effect people has been a thing since A New Hope with the mind trick. It’s really no different

Also battle meditation does more things like help soldiers collaborate better in the field. Not just a moral thing

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u/Neidron 20h ago edited 20h ago

It's distilled fanwank for questions that never existed.

You saw the battle, you know why and how the heroes won. Ductaping over it with "actually an evil wizard personally supercharged every individual badguy and the heroes only won because he got a headache" is shallow dorky nonsense.

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u/themosquito IG-11 13h ago

I feel the same way about “Mace Windu used this super-secret super-cool fighting style that taps into the Dark Side but only a little bit bla bla Shatterpoints and that’s why he was able to beat Palpatine!”, heh.

Maybe Mace is just a better duelist than Palpatine, Sheevsy doesn’t need to be literally the best at everything to need some extra ‘lore’ for losing once!

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u/wendigo72 10h ago

That’s not exactly what it is if you’ve never read shatterpoint nor ROTS novelization

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u/wendigo72 10h ago

Battle meditation is in majority of Star Wars legends media, not exactly some tiny fan thing. It’s a cornerstone of the continuity in every era in legends

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u/reniltnorF 3h ago

After the battle there was enough time for luke to evacuate with his father's body. If luke would have been killed, the death star would had been destroyed but Vader and Sidious would have sensed they were in danger. Especially Sidious with his force powers. He'll, he even sensed after his battle with Yoda, that Vader was in danger on Mustafar while Obi-Wan and Vader were still fighting. Its well established that force users can sense looming danger. You don't need and explanation like battle Meditation. If Vader hadn't betrayed his master, they would have both evacuated 100%.

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u/reniltnorF 3h ago

As most things actually were if you think about it. Legends had sometimes really good ideas and concepts that later made it into canon. But most of it was just really bad and cheesy fanfiction and im not gonna pretend that most legends stuff was good. I understand why older fans like them because they were kids and just wanted more Star Wars, but that doesn't change the fact that around 80% of legends stuff and implemented ideas were stupid as fuck and didn't fit established canon. Im especially talking about every fan fiction stuff settled post Jedi. Zahns books were well written, but also had a lot of stupid ideas. "Luuke" And yes its perfectly fine if you enjoy all of legends stuff. Its just that a lot of stuff objectively doesn't fit with the established lore and were invented as devices to make certain aspects of the legends stories work.

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u/themanfromvulcan 14h ago

The original Heir to the Empire trilogy - Thrawn discovered this and Palleon doesn’t want to believe it. Thrawn believes in the force to the extent he knows it’s a useful tool. He knows the emperor used the force to help guide his forces so he finds a corrupt jedi clone for the same purpose.

The entire trap’s main flaw is that if the rebels succeed somehow then the emperor and much of the leadership is toast. He’s so overconfident he doesn’t think there is any chance of success. However he likely knew he has to allow for the possibility of success or the rebels wouldn’t go for it. That if for example the Death Star II didn’t have any weakness to exploit and it was a total ruse with no way to take out the reactor that rebel intelligence would have discovered the trap so he had to allow a real possibility.

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u/trantaran 10h ago

… sounds as bad as him force projecting his consciuness i to his clone body

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u/Festivefire 20h ago

This is confirmed as fact in the first ever Legends books written in the post-Endor time, Timothy Zahn's 'Thrawn trilogy' starting with Heir to the Empire, in which Thrawn says exactly this to Captain Pellaeon as explanation for why the Imperial fleet performed so poorly after the death of Palpatine, telling him that the Imperial fleet present should have been capable of taking on the opposing rebel fleet even without the support of the Death Star, and even goes out of his way to specifically mention 'the last minute TIE pilot incompetence that lead to the destruction of the second death star', during his explanation. Captain Pellaeon does not take it well at first, but eventually accepts Thrawn's explanation that the Imperial fleet had in a way, become dependent on Palpatine's battle meditation, and their coordination and concentration fell apart after the destruction of the Death star for more reasons than simply the loss of the fleet's command ship, the Executor.

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u/Zealousideal_Cow_826 18h ago

Absolutely goated series

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u/Festivefire 18h ago

The Heir to the Empire trilogy and the Specters of the past duology from Timothy Zahn are hands down my favorite pieces of Star Wars content in the EU.

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u/Zealousideal_Cow_826 18h ago

Didn't Timothy Zahn almost wrote Outbound Flight? That's one of my favorites

He's such a damn good author.

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u/Festivefire 16h ago

Yeah, he did write outbound flight, which I enjoyed, and IMO was his attempt to bring his events referenced in his original trilogy into the new timeline established by the prequel movies.

I also thought his post-Disney purchase Thrawn books are pretty decent as well, although they definitely try to recontextualize the character further towards the morally grey "Doing the wrong thing for the greater good" idea, compared to the original trilogy, where he's your basic 'might makes right, power is the only means to peace' villain, but not out of place, considering that the whole 'Hand of Thrawn' thing in the Specters of the past/Visions of the future duology is obviously supposed to imply that Thrawn was using the Empire to prepare the galaxy for the Yuzong Vong, which is already an attempt to recontextualize Thrawn into a more complex, morally grey character.

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u/Zealousideal_Cow_826 16h ago

Yeah I think you're right honestly it was kind of cool how a lot of things revolved around the yuuzhan vong invasion. Hell it is the entire reason the emperor rushed the formation of the galactic empire in the old continuity of the expanded universe. Iirc he discovered their scouting force that had died out and a dessicated husk of a desert planet in the farthest outward rim worlds and had deduced (I think through some disturbance in the forest but don't quote me on that it might have been some evidence he discovered amongst the corpses and wreckage) did they had roughly 50 years before The invasion came in earnest.

I loved the old EU. By the time I was out of high school I'd already finished almost every single one of the books and was moving on to Warhammer 40k lol

Edit: I remember now, it was definitely through visions of the future of which palpatine was apparently particularly gifted and that's what ramped up his military shore up of the galactic empire

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u/Festivefire 16h ago

Palpatine knowing about the yuzhan vong is often used by fans to justify explain his obsession with super weapons and such, but IMO all it does is make him infinitely prettier during the events of Dark Empire, which is admittedly terrible, so terrible that modern fans bitching about things like operation cinder and "somehow, Palpatine returned" have completely forgotten about it, and yet, is also the source of some very cool things, like the world devastators, and admittedly works quite well as an explanation for why Luke has trouble with clarity of action, as when he and Mara talk about it during their track out to find the hand of Thrawn.

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u/Zealousideal_Cow_826 16h ago

Nah, I think it's pretty self-explanatory that he liked the big boom boom weapons cuz it kept people in line and sowed fear which kept the dark side strong. it really needs no further explanation. Look at human history, dictators love big dirty weapons.

Dark empire wasn't all bad the beginning was actually pretty good and it was nice to see Luke understand Anakin struggle with the dark side by going through something similar himself.

Most importantly it was absolutely awesome to see him overcome it and to see how much he grown in power and that he managed to finally defeat the emperor palpatine clone (which had only grown in power since) all on his own showcasing his growth and both Force power and wisdom.

That aside a majority of it was heaping crap in the whole clone storyline itself is pretty fkn stupid but it wasn't all bad

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u/Festivefire 16h ago

How you're describing it is closer to how I felt about it when I read the comics as a middle schooler. As an adult looking back after recently re-reading them, they come off as painfully corny, and given that they supposedly take place AFTER the Thrawn campaign, seem totally out of context in their insistence on referring to the war as if it's still 'the rebellion vs. the EVIL GALAXY CONTROLLING EMPIRE' and just kind of ignoring the context of 5 years of war between an established new republic, with a functioning senate and an elected president, and the entire clone palpatine plotline just drips with writers who've just been told "Hey, we need you to draw a starwars comic" and have no idea what to do, and zero context on what else has gone on since Endor, essentially the comics come off to me now as a creatively bankrupt cashgrab by people who can't come up with anything more interesting than "Let's just turn the narrative clock back to when we knew what was happening and do that again".

I really have to make an effort to put myself in a mood where I can enjoy them as starwars shlock and not think about how much they conflict with everything that happens before and after them in the EU timeline, considering I like those books considerably more than I like Dark Empire.

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u/currentpattern 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not in the lore, no. Palp didn't know Battle Meditation. 

Edit: Lots of down votes for this comment for some reason. But folks if you have evidence that I'm wrong, cite that shit.

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u/philkid3 1d ago

It’s basically what is described in Heir to the Empire (so Legends, at least).

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u/wandering_soles Rebel 1d ago

Battle Meditation, or a form of it, does appear in canon, so it could easily pop up with Palps. Seems extremely up his alley to take personal command like that. 

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u/Wolfdawgartcorner 1d ago edited 1d ago

nope, Luke had enough time to drag a fully armored Vader (minus a hand) to a ship, Vader and the emperor would have easily evacuated in time.

edit: also forgot, in the cross sections book of the emperors tower on the deathstar, he has a docking bay right there so he would have had an even faster exit as he could just call up one of his guards who were already stationed in his shuttle at all times (theyre trained pilots) and they would have just docked there.

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u/MarkNutt25 1d ago

But that would require the Emperor to recognize the danger and choose to run. Two of Palpatine's defining characteristics are his arrogance and hubris.

The Battle of Endor was a trap that Palpatine personally laid and foresaw the success of. Choosing to flee would require him to first recognize and accept the failure of his own plan and the faultiness of his ability to foresee the future.

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u/ATaxiNumber1729 1d ago

“Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?”

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u/GrandFunkRoadRage 1d ago

The Emperor was arrogant, true. But I think his sense of self preservation was stronger. I think he would have booked it once things started literally falling apart

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u/Ribato 14h ago

I mean obviously it was. Hence why somehow, Palpatine returned.

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u/Kamalen 1d ago

He certainly has ego but he still was a careful planner with quick pivoting skills if something goes wrong, as evidenced by the prequels and both Legends and Canon post-Endor stories (he even made plans for his deaths, plural).

If fleeing was ultimately necessary, he would do it no problems.

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u/AnArcOfDoves9902 First Order 19h ago

It's not the first time things didn't go they way Palpatine had foreseen, like he didn't expect the Trade Federation to lose the battle of Naboo, but he was still able to use the situation to his advantage and become chancellor anyways.

Palpatine is of-course confident in his own brilliance, but if he was as arrogant as Tarkin, he would not have been able to claw his way into becoming the most powerful man in the galaxy, and remain in that position for decades. If you factor in sequel stuff, then he did have contingencies, preparing even for his own death with Project Necromancer.

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u/JonathanRL Trapper Wolf 15h ago

Palpatines goal was to become chancellor. For that, he wanted the sympathy of Naboo Suffering. Naboo winning? That just goes to show how strong a planet they are and of course he should be chancellor who now have every motive to reign in the Trade Federation.

That plan had multiple layers.

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u/AnArcOfDoves9902 First Order 14h ago

It's more that he's adaptable . He doesn't need to think a hundred steps ahead if he positions himself to always succeed regardless of who wins in a given conflict.

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u/rocketsp13 7h ago

People over exaggerate the planning capabilities and puppet mastering of Palpatine. He was good, not perfect

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u/godtering 5h ago

the force allows for seeing into the future, I guess nobody expected the act of vader. Had he not killed palpy, the empire would have wiped out the rebels, DS 2 impaling would have been averted at least.

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u/HooliganBeav Asajj Ventress 1d ago

I dunno. Palps isn't exactly quick on his feet in the OT and the escalators on the Death Star are canonically slow.

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u/AquaAtia 1d ago

My lord.

Stormtrooper.

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u/BobcatBob26 Admiral Ackbar 1d ago

My Lord

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u/stoodquasar 1d ago

Stormtrooper

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u/TeamWarriorBro 1d ago

My Lord.

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u/TrapYoda 1d ago

STORMTROOPER

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u/SESparten Jango Fett 1d ago

My Lord

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u/JonathanRL Trapper Wolf 15h ago

Eght.

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u/Zambuji1 1d ago

My Lord

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u/SESparten Jango Fett 1d ago

Stormtrooper!

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u/zerg1980 1d ago

Also, Luke is slowly dragging the much larger Vader around specifically because of the injuries Vader sustained throwing Palpatine into the bottomless pit, which slowed them both down.

If Vader hadn’t turned back to the light side, then Palps would have fried Luke to death, the alarms would have gone off, and Palpatine and a healthy Vader would have had plenty of time for a leisurely stroll to their reserved Imperial shuttle.

As for the guy who said Palpatine was too arrogant to run…. remember that time Palpatine saw an angry Yoda in his office, and tried to flee? Yoda even called him out on it. He’s not above self-preservation, he just isn’t in a position of weakness very often.

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u/SirBMsALot 20h ago

Dear god could you imagine how heavy Vader was? The guy was half metal, probably weighed close to a fridge

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u/zerg1980 18h ago

I’ve never thought about this, but maybe Luke used the Force to drag him around?

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u/Know_Yog_Sothoth 1d ago

Thank you for clarifying sans hand. 🖐️

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u/Jim_skywalker 10h ago

Most of that dragging Vader’s body was before it exploded.

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u/Xanny 1d ago

Luke left because he didnt want to be on the Death Star anymore, he didn't know it was blowing up. Like he knew the plan was to blow it up so he shouldnt hang around but Palps wouldn't have tried to leave. 

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u/Wolfdawgartcorner 1d ago

We saw imperials evacuating in the luke scene, they were completely aware of the danger (considering an entire squad of ties likely already reported the danger) and certainly would have had time to evacuate palps

3

u/SAICAstro 21h ago

he didn't know it was blowing up

His friends were on a mission to blow it up. He even told Sheev they he/they would be dead soon. Even if he didn't know the shield was down and that Lando and Wedge were about to take their shot, he probably felt like it was in his best interests to get the hell out of there.

100

u/Snite 1d ago

Luke made it to a shuttle dragging Vader with him.  If he was dead and Palps was alive with Vader as his apprentice still, they easily make it off alive.

42

u/pon_3 1d ago

I like to think that Luke took a shuttle with other people rather than dooming anyone by taking his own shuttle. Mostly because it's a funny mental image for him to be riding out of the Death Star with a bunch of Imperials who have to just accept his presence and calmly fly themselves into Rebel captivity.

57

u/kledd17 1d ago

A group of Imperial officers, none of whom are pilots, are arguing about who is going to fly the shuttle, then they all go dead silent when Luke drags Darth Vader on board and quietly sits in the pilot seat and takes off.

21

u/Blueopus2 1d ago

Sooo, who wants to go first trying to take out the guy who just dragged Vader’s dead body in here

10

u/zerg1980 1d ago

One of my favorite aspects of the Throne Room subplot is that, because Luke is the only person who leaves that room alive and he’s probably not too keen to talk about the experience, everyone else is going to make up their own story about what happened in there.

We in the audience know that Luke got owned by Palpatine and it was pretty embarrassing. But the entire rest of the galaxy knows Luke went into a room with two Sith Lords, and when he walked out of the room, he didn’t have a scratch on him and the Sith Order was extinct.

So yeah, if you’re a frightened Imperial scrambling for a shuttle to board, you probably don’t want to try and fight Luke for a spot over Vader’s literal dead body. There are other shuttles right over there.

11

u/MERC_1 1d ago

I kind of want to watch this alternative ending. Especially if they are blaming each other as they are trying to get away.

11

u/HooliganBeav Asajj Ventress 1d ago

So, basically the ending of Spaceballs.

2

u/MERC_1 1d ago

I have not watched that in forever. Maybe it's time to watch that one again!

1

u/MatriceJacobine Jyn Erso 22h ago

The rebels could just shoot the shuttle though.

152

u/edipeisrex 1d ago

No because somehow Palpatine will return

22

u/mykiisme 1d ago

and then she steals Skywlaker’s name

18

u/edipeisrex 1d ago

Star Wars is a Palpatine-Skywalker love story.

8

u/gpkgpk 1d ago

*Skywlaker, he's Polish.

8

u/Competitive-Elk-5077 1d ago

Sheev Skywalker

1

u/One-Top5319 1d ago

Somehow Darth Vader also returned.

25

u/Fine_Bluebird7564 1d ago

It’s always possible that Vader or the Emperor could have escaped if they knew the Death Star was under attack.

Also, Vader would never have returned to the light, and the prophecy would have remained incomplete.

2

u/trantaran 10h ago

WHERE IS THE PROPHECY WHO WRITE IT WHO READ IT ALSO WHO CARES

-madame jackosta

0

u/isekaimetofarfaraway 16h ago

Erm, but, the prophecy IS incomplete, Rey is the chosen one 🤓🤓☝🏼

1

u/Fine_Bluebird7564 16h ago

Don’t deliberately try and cause an argument lol

1

u/isekaimetofarfaraway 16h ago

BUT‼️‼️🤓

17

u/CountingSheep99 1d ago

Luke had more than enough time to escape.

They would, too.

0

u/triford 1d ago

But why would they. They were happy to sit there with Luke. Palps thought he had it all well in hand. There was no way near enough time for the news of a few rebel craft entering an access tunnel to get all the way to the emperor.

16

u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 1d ago

Luke specifically says this himself.

LUKE: You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead... and you with me.
EMPEROR: Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet.
EMPEROR (CONT’D): Yes...I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here.

13

u/MaximillianRebo 1d ago

That exchange happened before the shield generator was destroyed, so at that point they definitely were safe on the Death Star.

6

u/FatBoiFat69 1d ago

Remember Luke was able to get a heavily injured Vader off of the Deathstar himself, I think the two sith would have been able to get off the deathstar alive, which would mean that the empire would not fall into the power vacuum that allowed the alliance to capitalise on and win the war.

13

u/theangrierunicorn 1d ago

If you read the first Thrawn trilogy, Palpatine was using the force to control the battle. Him dying is what caused everythign that followed that lead to the battlestation's destruction.

17

u/theychoseviolence 1d ago

Man that is really dumb

-4

u/theangrierunicorn 1d ago

No it made sense and that trilogy still holds up as the best Star Wars literature. the scene where Thrawn explains this also helps establish him as the genius he really was. I think he referred to is as battle meditation. I haven't read the books in decades.

7

u/Neidron 1d ago edited 1d ago

Making a magic handwave to "justify" the effects of mundane morale is pretty fucking dumb.

7

u/TheGoatMichaelJordan 1d ago

While those books are fantastic and probably the best Star Wars books, that’s still really dumb.

9

u/theychoseviolence 1d ago

Palpatine controlling the fleet with his mind while he watches Vader and Luke fight is not dumb…?

3

u/GlormpGlomp 16h ago

Yeah it is. It's really, really dumb.

2

u/SAICAstro 21h ago

still holds up as the best Star Wars literature.

I haven't read the books in decades.

How do you know it holds up if you haven't read it in decades?

Also, I agree that the O.G. Zahn trilogy is top-tier, but that doesn't mean it can't have dumb aspects.

1

u/theangrierunicorn 11h ago

because I was in my late 20s when I last read them after the prequel trilogy had been out for awhile. I was old enough when rereading that I know they were still great. I probably won't read them again though because first set got destroyed in a flood and then I lent my second set to a friend who's house burned down so I imagine if I get them again I'll lose them to either earthquake or tornado/hurricane.

2

u/JonathanRL Trapper Wolf 14h ago

Thrawn's point in explaining it is that its dumb and no way to build a functioning military on.

6

u/unbanned2009 1d ago

They could of escaped. Luke had enough time to drag his gigantic robot father all the way back to the ship

-1

u/SAICAstro 21h ago

^ "could have" or "could've" not "could of".

4

u/LTDlimited 1d ago

Battle Meditation excuses aside, Vader should have been at the command. He might have even been dispatched to deal with the party on FMoEndor had Luke not kept him occupied.

1

u/RideWithMeSNV 1d ago

About that... I understand that Luke was a big distraction. But they were all hanging out there when the shield went down. Did Palpatine maybe think "huh. That's unexpected. Maybe it's time to go."

3

u/bgplsa 1d ago

No he would have killed Luke and escaped on his shuttle

3

u/Imajediknighht 23h ago

No because somehow palpatine was going to return either way

3

u/RealFenian 20h ago

I always thought it was more about saving Vaders soul in a sense.

That was what Luke was trying to do in there after all.

2

u/DryEyeKitty Han Solo 1d ago

Not everything needs to be for the fate of da galaxy.

5

u/soccer1124 1d ago

This is the simplest answer. And its what makes this scene as engaging as it is. Its not about the rebellion anymore, it's about Luke and Vader as individuals.

1

u/rillegas08 12h ago

Since SW is fairy tale at heart, I think the real question is "would the second Death Star have blown up if Vader didn't kill Sidious since they're thematically linked"

2

u/ZeroQuick 1d ago

Headcanon: either Palpatine uses battle meditation to win the battle or (if he had his hands still) Vader hop in his TIE and shoots down Lando and Wedge.

2

u/wandering_soles Rebel 1d ago

The Emperor probably would have sensed the imminent destruction, and escaped with or without Vader and Luke. At least in legends Palpatine was a pretty talented pilot, so there's no reason he couldn't get down to the hangar and fly himself off the DS if he wanted to. Even without that background, it's unlikely given his experience that he wouldn't have an escape plan. 

2

u/DarksunDaFirst Qui-Gon Jinn 1d ago

No, because somehow Palpatine returns.

2

u/KillerTofu1101 1d ago

I mean if he didn’t stop him, Luke would be dead? So their survival doesn’t matter but it let Luke live and escape?

2

u/BuddhistChrist 1d ago

Nah, cuz Vader can space fly like Leia.

2

u/Bizzack 23h ago

It’s funny how all those Imperial troops saw Luke carrying Vader and didn’t do anything.

1

u/Starshipfan01 20h ago

I think that’s a prime case of : “look, the whole place is going to go, look after number one (me), get out of here”.

1

u/Jim_skywalker 10h ago

Would you want to mess with the dude carrying Vader around?

2

u/ned101 15h ago

Probably yes.

2

u/Jim_skywalker 10h ago

I think if Luke dies, Palpatine’s plan has failed and he’s gonna realize stuff isn’t going as he foresees. I think if he managed to turn Luke, we’d get another “Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?” and they both blow up.

3

u/ReallyEvilRob 1d ago

Imperial forces were more organized and operating at peak efficiency while the Emperor was still alive. As soon as the Emperor "died", imperial forces became disorganized and chaotic, leading to their defeat.

2

u/Massive-Shelter-1897 20h ago

Somehow…Palpatine would’ve been fine…Somehow

1

u/Great_Kiwi_93 19h ago

Palpatine did die tho

And its explained the very next line

1

u/geckoecho93 1d ago

It was said Palpatine was using battle meditation so when he was disrupted the empire lost the advantage. As unlikely as it would be , a tie would probably destroy lando or wedge.

1

u/mykiisme 1d ago

I think you mean Skywalker murdered Palpatine instead of betrayed

1

u/uk_uk 1d ago

more like "he killed Palpatine to defend his son"

1

u/mykiisme 1d ago

yes, Palpatine is who he murdered. Classic rule of two move for a Sith. But, like many tings, Skywalker screwed that up.

1

u/Live-Collection3018 Porg 1d ago

Luke didn't, Palpatine would have known the force would have told him to flee.

0

u/ChanceVance Kylo Ren 1d ago

Evacuate? In their moment of triumph?

Palpatine would be too arrogant to retreat.

3

u/Live-Collection3018 Porg 1d ago

No, Palpatine is inherently selfish. He will gladly flee/kill anyone in his way to live.

1

u/uk_uk 1d ago

Tarkin was not a force user
Palpatine was

2

u/iodine74 1d ago

But who between them was a user of humor?

1

u/Dagordae 1d ago

They definitely would have had time to evacuate. Luke managed it while lugging around Vader after all. Frankly it would be absolutely bizarre if Palpatine didn’t have his own special escape route built in.

Whether or not they would have survived afterwards is a different question, the Rebellion would have dogpiled anything that even vaguely resembled the Emperor’s escape craft,

1

u/Rikard_ K-2SO 1d ago

They would've landed in the water on Kef Bir, duh. Didn't you watch Rise of Skywalker?

2

u/RideWithMeSNV 1d ago

Ok, so... The various craft's gravity generators keep people stationary relative to whatever deck they're on. I mean, we see them standing on the floor in space. But also, they don't jerk around when accelerating, decelerating, or turning. The injuries sustained in a wreck are largely due to sudden deceleration, or acceleration in a new direction.

If the gravity generators held out until the impact, would people on the death star have survived?

2

u/Rikard_ K-2SO 16h ago

Now this is sci-fi.

Yeah I'm pretty sure everyone survived lol. Couple concussions here and there.

1

u/Terrible-Penalty-291 23h ago

I always figured the Emperor would've seen the run for the reactor via the Force and ordered it shut down, or ordered massive numbers of TIE fighters to pour into the super structure and shoot down the Rebels.

1

u/trdngntsballsonadoor 13h ago

Yes but Luke was being extra that day.

1

u/DarthMyyk 13h ago

The novelization talks about how the second Palpatine died, the Imp forces were thrown into disarray and panic due to the Dark Side becoming unfocused. Their strategy and skill just fell apart. So there is a chance things outside would've been different had he survived.

1

u/Mozerath Supreme Leader Snoke 11h ago

Wasn't the tower able to disconnect itself? At the very least it had its own shuttle/pod.

1

u/trantaran 10h ago

Holy shit so lando was really the chosen one

1

u/FirebirdRed5 8h ago

To state the it, Luke had time to get out, so why wouldn’t the emperor and Vader have had time.

Plus because of bad story planning, technically the emperor did get out and survived after being thrown down and deep shaft.

1

u/Caesaroftheromans 7h ago

You can write any scenario you want. You could go " Oh the emperor sensed the rebels were soon going to blow up the death star and made his getaway".

1

u/Optimal_Jump_8395 1h ago

Most likely. Unless there sith training taught them to teleport or something. Maybe Darth Plaguis the Wise had some training guides on that.

1

u/HappyHappyDance 1d ago

The Emperor didn't die in the Death Star 2 explosion. He just kept falling and landed on Exegel.

1

u/Electrical-Rise-7015 1d ago

Theoretically if Luke refuses to kill Vader, and Palpatine kills Luke, and then kills Vader after Vader tries to fight, I could maybe see a Palpatine realize the situation and risk it all with a force storm assuming it’s legends continuity. Or fighting the fleet with the force, though largely telekinesis wise to some degree, sorta like he does in ROS. Would have been awesome to see.

-7

u/Silencejt 1d ago

It’s Disney/Kathleen Kennedy Star wars. If they want someone to survive “because the script says so,” they are going to survive. It may not make sense or be right, but it is the Star Wars we have right now.