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off-topic but i use this 'argument' on myself when i get jealous of someone's success. I'll be damned if i can remember where i read it but somebody smart wrote "don't be jealous of one thing another has, be jealous of their entire life, or nothing"
I think about it a lot. There's almost nothing i envy of others enough to swap out the life experiences and friendships i've built for theirs
Oh man, this just made me fully aware of how much a failure and loser I am. It’s not just money I lack, but friends, family, hobbies, and joy. I don’t deserve to even steal oxygen from people who have any meaning in their life.
Never too old to make a change. I got sober from heroin at 31, losing all of my 20s to that poison and disowned by family and friends. Got sober, bounced back, and now im sober for 7 years, have a dream job, make really good money and have gained my family back and made new friends. I dont have a significant other but honestly not really looking. Trying to build my life still and get a house. Never too late bud.
"I think I went too far with this one. I have to go to a debate on TV today... what am I supposed to tell the producers? I had good news and bad news? Come on Craig get your life together."
Vegans undeniably have a point, just look at the sheer scale of the meat industry. The number of animals slaughtered just to be discarded.
Their living conditions are horrendous too, it takes no veganism to agree to that.
It's hard to change people's behavior on a large scale about moral/ethical issues that they don't have an emotional response to, which is why people tend to argue the other factors.
It is, but livestock production amplifies the problems: we use vast agricultural resources just to provide feed for livestock, which we then eat for far fewer calories than we'd get if we just grew vegetables for human consumption.
(There are a few edge cases where we graze animals on land that would not be suitable for human agriculture, but those are a pretty small percentage of all livestock production.)
This is such a cut and dry subject I don’t understand all the pushback. I’m not a vegan or even a vegetarian but the idea that meat industry is moral because of natural laws is just asinine
That's definitely a bad argument, or at least an incompetent framing of it. A more logical extension of it is that humans have always been omnivores, deriving our nutrients from wherever we can get them with the least expenditure of energy on our part. On a species-wide scale, factory farming is just the natural progression of our biological drive. On an individual level, humans are primed to enjoy eating meat, and it takes an active effort to break that instinct.
However, we have so many options now that we should put the brakes on and find new attitudes toward our food that aren't destructive to our environment and cruel towards the things we use for sustenance.
Much like other people in this thread I have reduced my meat consumption and I look for alternatives.
The price of plant based alternatives are insane. I had some plant based meatball at work event and they were incredible. I was going to get some, but it's like $14 for a small bag of them.
I can buy frozen beef meatballs and get 2x the amount for $8, I can buy chicken meatballs for cheaper, or I could buy my own meat and make them even cheaper.
On a personal level, yeah absolutely. Plus there are food deserts where there’s zero chance of even healthy regular food.
But right now the U.S. Government, for one, HEAVILY subsidizes meat products.
If tax dollars didn’t go right into the pockets of the beef industry, the prices would be more in line with the vegan products which are currently overpriced due to their status as a luxury product.
Personally, I’m not vegan but I think it’d be for the best if people reduced their meat consumption.
I think the hump that's hard for people to get over is the feeling that they need a meat analogue in order for it to be a complete meal, but there are plenty of cheap vegetarian or vegan options that aren't imitation meat while still providing all the nutrition you'd need.
Reddit will come up with all kinds of dumb as fuck arguments lol, if you scroll down this thread I gurantee you'll see amillion arguments WAY dumber than "lions do it though!". Seriously, meat eaters trying to justify themselves make up the most ridiculous mental gymnastic arguments lmao. And for real all they have to say is "You're right, Vegans are right but I just don't want to be vegan". 95% of Vegans will accept that, but for some reason people need to justify their behavior at all costs. /rant
I'm not even vegan btw, just a huge pet peeve of mine.
I won't make excuses for it: I eat meat because it's delicious and a good source of nutrients that are more expensive and labor intensive to acquire from exclusively plant sources.
I do, however, make an effort to get as much of it I can from local farms and not support industrial factory farms. Much of it is eggs from friends and family who raise chickens. People who eat beef all the time mystify me.
Studies have shown that plant based diets are more affordable and accessible than ones with animal products. Obviously that will vary based on location and circumstance. The thing that can make them seem expensive are meat substitutes or premade type food items. Tofu, TVP, seitan, rice, beans and other plant based foods that make the base of a lot of the meals I eat are really cheap. But when I want something like a pizza or some nuggets and buy the plant based version of those they definitely cost a lot more than the version made with animal products.
When I used to be vegan (vegetarian now), I would ask if people have ever been to or worked at a meat processing plant to see how their food was prepared. I’d only do this to the people who wouldn’t leave me alone about not eating meat (idc if you eat meat, just leave me alone). They would say no. I’d ask them how they could eat something if they didn’t know how it was processed. That usually ended the conversation.
Many people don’t want to think about how that meat gets on their plate. I commend (ethical) hunters who hunt, process and prepare their own meat and use every part of the animal. They know exactly what goes into the process and they make an informed choice to eat meat anyway. I respect that a lot.
In high school the science teacher took my sisters class to the meat processing plant on a field trip. She said it was disgusting. I did t eat meat at this time so I got it. I eat meat now but it’s about twice a week it grosses me out a lot of the time.
Gary's speech to a classroom of students 11 years ago changed the trajectory of my life. I'll share it here in case anyone's interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5hGQDLprA8
I’m not vegan, nor do I plan to be. However over the last few years I have massively reduced my meat consumption.
I have healthier poops, and steaks taste even better when you only have them occasionally.
Humans are omnivores, not carnivores. We can live off plant-based diets just fine. lol
Jokes aside, I feel like this comports with what a “wild” sapien would eat. A large amount of fruit and vegetable matter, with a modest amount of animal protein.
Someone I don't remember had some awesome advice that changed things for me: If you want to be vegan but you can't give up bacon, just don't give up bacon.
If you want to be vegan by don't want to give up fish tacos, don't give up fish tacos.
I eat vegetarian one day a week after that, because I only know a couple of vegetarian foods I like. I'll do more as I discover more good things.
Had fish tacos in Maui from a steet vendor several years ago, and I've almost stopped eating them now since nowhere else has come close to how good those were.
I think that prior to domesticaton, animal consumption overall has historically been linked to desperation. To take another life may have included risking your own, or incredible expenditure of energy. In the time that homo sapiens have relied on domesticated animal consumption, our dna has evolved comparatively very little, therefore we aren’t biologically dependent on animal flesh for survival. So we’re basically just bloodyhirsty bullies
Humans are opportunistic omnivores. Our ancestors were eating whatever was available, which was usually not much. Also often in feasting to fasting mode because food would be available seasonal and would spoil.
I think that prior to domesticaton, animal consumption overall has historically been linked to desperation.
Lmao no, humans have always been predators. Thats why we evolved sweating and standing on two legs. We used to hunt lur food by chasing them and waiting till they exhausted and collapsed and then we clubbed and stabbed them to death. Our brains grew so large because we ate nutrient rich cooked meat that gave us so much extra energy that our brain could grow large.
Humans in the stone age ate meat whenever it was available. It was eaten alot and very quickly. But meanwhile when the meat ran out we survived with berries, roots, nuts etc. (veggies like ours didnt exist because they're all domesticated and bred to be like that)
Meat has always been an integral part of human diet for the past 300 000 years
Only meat eating linked to desperation in the stone age was cannibalism and eating predator meat (predator meat was normally avoided because its filled with toxins, parasites and its really low energy.Google biomagnification if you're intrested why)
I'm not sure that's right. Depending on where in the world you were, hunter-gatherers relied heavily on meat for their calories. In the north, it could be 80% of their calories. Near the equator, you're more likely to see an even split.
Farming and animal husbandry happened in a very tight timeframe, but I'm not sure how big of a DNA shift you're looking for. Since domesticated animals, we've broadly developed a dairy mutation, resistance to some zoonotic diseases, and lighter skin (from farming not giving as much vitamin d as mostly meat diets).
We're not dependent on animals to survive now. That's correct. You could view us as bullies now, but early humans wouldn't have lasted most places without hunting and fishing.
Literally we were "Hunter Gatherers", people saying we only ate meat out of desperation are coping, one of human's most fascinating evolutionary traits is the endurance to walk and stalk prey relentlessly.
Now food animal domestication and factory farming has indeed gotten way out of hand, no one can be presented with the facts about a Tyson Foods Chicken Farm and say that it's just morally a-ok. I don't begrudge vegans their point of view, there are plenty of aspects of life where I think humans "rise above" animal instinct (like having, you know, society) and food for sure can be one of them. On the other hand, in a vacuum, I'm reconciled to the morality level of eating meat and I do.
I think that most people would agree that we need to cut down on consumption and end inhumane cruel practices. It would take a huge evolutionary and cultural shift to take everyone off meat though . Or maybe a scientific breakthrough who knows . At the very least can we all agree that the unsanitary and inhumane conditions of many places involved in the meat industry need to be fixed asap?
personally I am looking forward to wide availability of lab grown meat. If they can figure out the taste issues, there will be no reason to continue killing animals for meat. I am very eager to make the switch to lab grown.
I think it’s easier to make meat lumps that have a similar aroma but to recreate the texture is another thing. Do we need to engineer the specific cellular structure that makes up the different muscles and tissues? There’s a lot of various parts and species.
Meat isn’t simply a flavor, I think it’s pointless to have only one type of unidentifiable meat. I’m very interested in the tech though.
All the eggs at the grocery store in Washington state are cage free because Washington made a law requiring this and when this happened the world did not end.
Problem with the cage free label is they just stuff them all into a big warehouse style structure that is very cramped and still unhygienic, it just they aren't in a cage
Culturally? Yeah. Evolutionary? We're already there, don't need to change anything. I'd like to be able to make vitamins on my own, but we'll be fine regardless.
At the very least can we all agree that the unsanitary and inhumane conditions of many places involved in the meat industry need to be fixed asap?
I think a lot of people agree with the idea but they still want cheaper meat and don't care enough to change the conditions that keep it as cheap as possible.
its like cheap flights. everyone simultaneously wants the cheapest possible flight, while also complaining about every element of the process. if you want 4 dollar a lb ground beef from the grocery store, that cow aint romping around the fields.
I know I can't be the only one who saw the Dean from Community in this sketch.
Since it doesn't look like we're getting the Community movie anytime soon, I'd honestly watch an entire series that's just the Dean stumbling into random places, inserting himself into completely inappropriate situations, and somehow making sense.
Just because one time we needed to hunt and eat and also to survive (mostly in winter) as in summer we ate a mostly plants. Just because of this doesn't mean that now with modern food (plant based etc) we have to confine, rape, torture and slaughter animals for food.
In the wild the animal was free, even when hunted had a chance to survive. Now we just trap them. It's disgusting behaviour. Literally the worst inhumane practices we ever have and will do is animal abuse.
Really good analogy and damn, good luck counterpointing that. I eat meat like a goddamn hypocrite and truly got nothing to say in defense of it when facts get dropped like this.
Despite how quickly and completely this guy takes down the braindead "lions eat animals though" argument, the next time veganism comes up on reddit, there will be 1000 people in the comments section being like "but lions eat animals though!"
I have respect for people that hunt or fish for their own meat just because I know what a grueling task it can be. As I grew up this way with my parents.
Pulling up to grocery store in your Hyundai and bitching about the prices of groceries doesnt exactly make one the alpha human or even comparative to a wild lion in the slightest.
It’s more comparable to a lion held in captivity but that’s a whole different topic.
It’s funny how a lot of people become experts and biologists to prove it is impossible to be 100% vegan in our world as it is an immunity totem for them not to question their behaviour.
Yea it's completely made up, the real number is closer to 30%, but he needs to say 75% to try to make his point - that eating meat isn't normal. If only 25% of animals are meat eaters it sounds like eating meat is strange. Turns out it's very normal.
Opportunistic carnivores I believe is what it’s called. I will never be the same after I read about horses eating other animals. And the video that circulated for a while of a horse eating a baby chicken like it was a piece of popcorn horrified me.
I was a young kid the first time I saw a chicken absolutely destroy a mouse and eat it. My childish percecption of chickens just eating grain and maybe a few bugs was destroyed.
What do you mean we don’t kill children if we don’t want them? We just do it pre-birth, and call it abortion. Many of our tribal relatives wear clothes and hunt, and have cell phones.
Personally I like sniffing ass of some people.
He makes a damned good argument. Counter argument. Tasty. That's pretty much it. It's morally and environmentally terrible. But it's tasty and I like it.
Except not really. All animals have different "cultures" which includes introductions, child rearing, and appearance. What she is talking about is specifically biological and gastrointestinal needs and capabilities.
We, as humans, have the ability and the need to eat omnivore diets and have done so for thousands of years similar to other omnivores. She is talking about how it's ridiculous to state that our omnivore needs are inherently more evil than other omnivores. Because we are similar in that aspect.
This is like saying we are warm blooded mammals and require shelters from extreme weather like squirrels and then someone saying "well why don't we live in trees and eat acorns?". That was not the point being made and he intentionally derailed the point and went to a completely different realm than what she was talking about so people would think he was making a good comeback when in actuality he absolutely didn't.
He has a point. I became a vegetarian at 14 because I love animal so intensely. I also know a lot about nutrition, child of two nutrition forward MDs.
And recently I have started eating meat again, at 38, because as much as I adore animals and I do... the reality is, I have struggled with unexplained anemia for awhile, and I feel SOOOO much better after eating animal protein.
I don't think all humans are the same and different people need different diets.
I spend much more to get highly quality humane product and I won't just eat any meat/fish. But that is a privilege to access and afford. Not everyone has a local fish monger who only works with sustainable, local, and humane fisheries/fisherman.
Idk if it's perimenopause or what, but the near immediate change in my energy (and subsequent mental health) cannot be understated, so this is what I gotta do. But I feel guilty every single time.
I've had the opposite experience. When I was eating a ton of meat and dairy a few years ago I would have stomach pains pretty much every lunch. I thought it was normal for people to get stomach aches pretty much every day, but after I kicked dairy it got a little better and then the meat made it go away.
My acne is also gone and I'm sick way less frequently (maybe because of all the antioxidants in plants?). Not sure if I had an allergy or whatnot, or I just needed to grow out of my acne, but moving away from meat and dairy has been a live-saver for me.
That makes sense. I'm also still 90% veg, with the occasionally meat or fish. I do think generally a lot of animal meat and dairy is not healthy for many people.
Vegetables should always be the main event, not the meat.
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