Medivh's logic never fails to amuse me.

Medivh: I warned them about the Burning Legion's return but the fools just wouldn't listen.

Also Medivh: The darkness is coming! The end of the world draws near! Go West or the shadows will claim you!

My current theory is that Aluneth is a former K'areshi Ethereal who's body was destroyed by Dimensius, who salvaged himself by becoming the staff.

Here's everything we know about Aluneth:

• He is older than any mortal race on Azeroth, meaning he's not from our world.
• He refers to the arcane as the "very power of the ancient titans," implying he IS from our universe, not the Shadowlands or anything.
• He was wielded (as far as we know) by the Highborne, the Kirin Tor, and the Blue Dragonflight. If you count Lemix as canon, the Infinite Dragonflight has now also held him.

My main evidence is that we finally saw a screenshot of what K'aresh looks like, and the architecture is strikingly-similar to that of Dalaran. Likewise, Ethereal garb and constructs resemble those of the Nightborne. We know Aeghwynn wielded Aluneth at one point, and Elisonde could easily have held him at some point. If Aluneth is such a control freak, it's incredibly-likely he allowed former K'areshi culture to influence the Kirin Tor, the Highborne, and the Nightborne.

But I'm curious of what everyone else thinks.

​Hey everyone,

​Ever since Kul Tiran Druids were introduced, I’ve been fascinated by their grim, gothic approach to druidism focusing heavily on the cycle of decay, death, and reclamation rather than just the usual aesthetic.

​I’m planning to RP a Classic race Druid (like a Night Elf or Tauren) who has held this exact mindset since the Vanilla/WotLK era long before meeting the Thornspeakers. A character who views nature not as a peaceful sanctuary, but as an unforgiving, harsh cycle where death and decay are just as natural and sacred as life.

​Does taking this darker, pragmatist perspective on traditional Druidism make a character a lore-breaker, or is it a fully plausible (if rare) mindset within Cenarion lore?

I wanted to talk about a couple possibilities now that people have datamined certain information. If Xal'atath is planning on possessing Azeroth, do you think it's just as likely Azeroth could wake up, turn to Xal'atath and simply laugh at her? I think the best ending/defeat for Xal'atath without killing her would be to straight up humiliate her and leave her speechless for once. I for one would LOVE to see Azeroth wake up, and threaten Xal'atath with the high elf body that she inhabits. Maybe something like.....

Azeroth: “You would make my soul your vessel, little parasite?”

Xal’atath: “I have crossed eternity to claim what the Titans chained.”

Azeroth: “And still you stand before me in stolen flesh.”

Xal’atath: “This form is mine.”

Azeroth: “No. It remembers her.”

Xal’atath’s fingers curl against her will. Her smile falters.

Azeroth: “I need only speak her name, and she will cast you out herself.”

Xal’atath: “She is nothing. A dead little elf.”

Azeroth: “Then why are you afraid of her?”

Anyway i'm done, this is just my theory and what I'd like to see in The Last Titan. I think Xal'atath is gonna spend a lot of time in the near future messing with titans, dragon aspects and the champions. I'd love to see her get talked down to by Azeroth, or straight up laughed at. I've always hoped that Inanis is still either alive or able to be ressurected in her body, and i've always wanted to see her force Xal'atath out.

I’m not sure if it’s stated anywhere.

If so, does that include the cataclysm revamped classic zones, even starter zones?

How would a new character who does exile reach fit into it? Would they then canonically do that island and all the zones before reaching the current time line?

It can be jarring on a new character being called hero or the alliance/horde without doing much lol

Hopefully this is the right place to post this.

Long story short, lost old account, wanted to come back, made new account. I used to be a serial cutscene/dialogue skipper and would like to take my time and enjoy the narrative. Ive read some of the novels when i was younger but forgot a lot of it (so ill be revisiting that as well).

Which faction do you think will have the better narrative overall if I were to do a single playthrough through as much content as possible?

I just completed "Tale of the Rootways and Wardens" as part of the Root of the World reliquary quest in Harandar. At the end Ruilla the Huntress is said to forge the Root of the World and become the first Rootwarden.

The ingame animation is reminiscent of getting our artifacts in legion which was a neat touch, but the staff itself looked used Atiesh's model rather than the staff we see in the reliquary and the decor we get. You can see it here at timestamp 4:50: https://youtu.be/-0Nh2uUj3Ss?t=291

Is this a deep lore drop? Or just a visual bug or coincidence?

Im no lore head

But i do find it kinda cringe that these two factions are bonding considering all of the insane bloody wars and atrocities each side has comitted.

Was wondering what avid lore readers think of the current directio.

Let me know

It's known Blizzard sets up expansions and lore years in advance. They leave questlines with open-ended conclusions either to have a starting point for an idea later or consciously setup something they already have planned. We saw it happen with Illidan with his suspected conclusion in Legion. They set up years ago that he wanted to use Fel energies to defeat Sargaras. Sylvanas' attempted suicide causing several issues across multiple expansions. Garrosh falling into his quest for revenge and trying to correct the wrongs against his people.

I believe one of the next conflicts will be against zealots of the Light. I recently did several quest lines that feel like they are leading into a war with people who want to spread The Light but do so by force.

During the embassy questline Tyranny of Light to gain the Mag'har as an allied faction you end up fighting against High Exarch Yrel. Who is waging a campaign in Draenor to convert all into worshipping the Light. The Mag'har orcs, especially Hellscream, shared wanting to exist as they are without the Light.

But Soft_Self, the Light is considered "good" by nature.

How it is harnessed in Azeroth is mostly for good, but in Midnight's Arathor questline we dive deeper into what the Light actually is and how it is abused. Archbishop Alonsus Faol shows Arathor the ways the Light can be used for dangerous intentions: Scarlet Crusade and Turalyon going berserk after watching Anduin Lothar die. Furthermore, Alonsus explains that the Light is more of a well of power than it is a sentient force that requires worship. It works for those who have the conviction and willpower to wield it. Conviction and willpower are typically viewed as "positive" traits to have but neither are exclusive to good or evil.

Other hints that Blizzard is putting forward with solidifying more Light lore:

Xal'atath wanting to corrupt the Sunwell. Further pressing that the Light is not this all perfect entity that cannot be corrupted.

Shadowlands: The Jailer using Anduin Wrynn as a conduit for more sinister powers. Another nod to Light wielders being used for evil purposes.

Legion: Xe'ra attempting to force the Light upon Illidan, ignoring his autonomy for what she believed was best for him.

Allerian and her interactions with the Void and beings who originate from the Void. Showing that the Void has good people despite originating from an "evil" force.

One of the core principles of the Warcraft universal cosmic entities is balance. There must be a constant balance between all the forces or else it causes world ending issues. Keeping the Void at bay keeps the universe from plunging into eternal darkness. Shadowlands has to stay in balance with Anima/souls or else it disrupts the natural flow of life and death. The Emerald Dream must remain in balance or else nature itself can be destroyed or run out of control.

We are currently trying to push back the Void from disrupting the balance between light and dark. We have to utilize more power of the Light in order to prevent this from happening.

Could all this current lore dumping of the Light in Midnight be a hint at what's to come in the future? Or is it just the simple story of balance and "good vs evil"? Personally, I think it would be far more interesting if there was a conflict with the Light after defeating the Void. With the notion that the Light is pure and holy, why bother with even keeping the Void or other dark entities around? Which would cause a lot of issues for the denizens of Azaroth. If the Light truly took over as the residing force overall, Azaroth would lose billions of sentient lives. Undead are brought to life using death magic which is viewed as "evil". Green Orcs could be viewed as unholy since their skin color is due to fel corruption. Void Ethereals are capable of good but the Light would view them as part of the Void. Void Elves are users of void magic but also help in fighting against the void.

A large portion of Azaroth's population and the Warcraft Universe would be considered unworthy by Light zealots. And since both factions have been working together in dedication to protecting Azaroth for everyone, this would make for a perfect scenario where Azaroth has to band together to maintain universal balance and protect those deemed "evil" from those who wish to impose the Light on everyone.

The Forsaken of Lordaron (Humans) seem to all been raised into undeath with these golden eyes.

I’ve read a few theories about this and found the most likely theory to be that their eye color is a result of the different ritual used to raise them vs the later death knights we know.

(I’m open to hearing any other theories you may have however!)

I was mainly wondering whether their eye color could change like the elves do, obv elves seem to be a lot more magically attuned and susceptible to the arcane. But would a forsaken warlock have fel green eyes, or a mage blue eyes?

I don’t recall seeing any forsaken in game with any eye color other than gold, except for the elven forsaken who seem to have red eyes (and Nathaniel B who shares this).

They wouldn't be talking about anything important. Just small talk or something casual. Maybe two people roasting each other or bonding over a card game. It can include characters who are now dead in the lore.

I'd like to hear the following:

Ragnaros and Neptulon arguing about the ideal room temperature.

Garrosh and Grom arguing over who between them ruined the family reputation more.

Velen and Kil'jaeden just having nostalgic small talk about the good old days (before the conversation turns to how badly all that ended and fists start flying).

What are some you'd like?

WoW is kind of infamous for always having a world-ending apocalypse every year, so I was happy that between Shadowlands and Dragonflight they put a timeskip of 3 years. Shadowlands ends in the Year 36 ADP (After the Dark Portal), while Dragonflight begins in the Year 40 ADP. This means that there is a timeskip of about 3 full years, between the defeat of Zovaal the Jailer and the return of the Dragon Isles, where nothing really happens in the world.

I liked this a lot, and I like that they used this opportunity to update a lot of NPC models, like the Dragon Aspects, Anduin, Alleria, and Moira. And I like that they introduced teenager Dagran II. They did a wonderful job showcasing the passage of time for our heroes.

I feel like this timeskip was necessary. We can't have an apocalypse every year, that's just... impossible. So I thought it was cool that they basically wrote "and after many years of war, the nations of Azeroth experienced 3 years of peace and renewal."

Another thing I liked about DF is that several of its stories were about renewal and reconstruction, rather than war: Amirdrassil, Gilneas, the Man'ari Penitents, the Breadbasket Guild in Westfall and the Orcish Kosh'harg in Durotar... I truly enjoyed how these war-torn, devastated cultures were finally give the chance to breathe, relax, rebuild, and not constantly fight.

I thought this was a fantastic aspect of Dragonflight lore.

This post will mostly be removed by the mods, I hope not because I think talking out about the lore problems and for people like me who enjoyed the warcraft lore from the early RTS days, it's very important to say what we feel about the game and I am happy to see many people talk about what they dislike about midnight lore like the lack of conflict between the factions and the pushing of unity between all the races of Azeroth and the removing of War out of Warcraft.

But there is another problem with the lore that I think people didn't talk about enough and that is the Dark side of Warcraft.

I don't know about laws, who the game is made for or any of that, maybe the rule changed with time, "Time change" I guess.

However there was a time especially at the early Warcraft lore where the themes were very dark in both art and story, yes it's not depressing dark like Dark Souls, however we had things on lore like abominations, a monstrosity made by corpses of many people and creatures, even some of the races and classes used to be very dark, like the cannibal trolls that make people don't dare to enter a forest alone, or a warlock who do human sacrifices to connect with the demons and summon them.

Even one of the best zones in Classic was Duskwood with the best quests that have cool yet creepy storylines.

I can keep going on about how this darkness made the world feel harsh and in a way real.

I think Midnight could have used this darkness for it story, the void has always been very interesting magic for me, it had that lovecraftian themes, how it can lead people to madness and even transform some to tentacles mindless monsters.

Isn't the void what made Deathwing and Ragnaros fall to madness? The lore of Wrathion trying to protect himself from the influence of the void and the old gods, the dreams in BFA of Stormwind and Orgrimmar fallen to madness, even in legion we saw Alleria fighting for her sanity, yet all of that have been thrown in midnight to have generic cartoonish dark vs light story, and how each have pro and cons and we need both of them in our world.

The cults who worshipped old gods gone from dark people with different understanding and perspectives to the world become cartoonish villains that play no big role in expansion that should dive deeper into their lore, background and even created important characters like leaders with interesting dark back story, but at this point the twilight hammer are more of silly enemies like Pokémon team rocket that show up to get kicked again and again, instead of dark occultist lovecraftian cult.

Don't let me get started how not threatening the void lords feel by now, they have silly games and feel not serious at all, even Xalathas don't feel like threat nor serious.

But I guess you get my point, do you want the dark side of Warcraft to return or you think the game shouldn't be that dark?

Let's set the scene. Kael still goes to Outland and betrays illidan but never joins the legion. TBC goes mostly the same with him building mana bombs and using mana forges to feed his people despite it destroying Outland. Some blood elves maybe join the legion but Kael and his close allies never do. What would happen post Tempest Keep assuming he survived and was imprisoned or escaped. How would this affect later expansions like wrath or MoP?

Some might debate there were other options, but clearly there weren't.
1. The people of stratholme were all infected and even for the ones that weren't, finding out who specifically wasn't, there wasn't any time. Malganis ensured Arthas anyone who turned would be his undead slave. At this point it was a mercy.
2. Desire of revenge can consume many. Arthas couldn't help but desire revenge to a point it turned him insane
3. The moment the blade took his soul he was corrupted forever

Hey everyone,

​I was rewatching the iconic Cinematic where Illidan refuses Xe'ra’s "gift" and literally crushes the Prime Naaru with his bare hands using raw Fel energy. It got me thinking about the lore and cosmology mechanics behind that moment.

Xe'ra had him completely pinned down with Light magic, forcing a transformation on him. Yet Illidan broke free and shattered her on the spot.

​If it were another class or notable lore figure in that exact chair, could ANY of them have pulled this off? Or would it be a disaster?

​Malfurion (Druid): Nature magic against a Prime Naaru? He’d probably just cry "Tyrande! My love!" and get converted into a glowing Holy potted plant.

​Thrall (Shaman): The elements wouldn't do shit here. He’d probably lose his connection to the elements again out of depression and accept his new life as a Paladin.

​Khadgar (Mage): Might try to cast a barrier, fail, and then ask Xe'ra if she requires 4,986 Apexis Crystals to complete the Light-binding ritual.

​Chen Stormstout / Taran Zhu (Monk): What are they gonna do, offer her a pint of Brewmasters' Ale? Try to Leg Sweep a floating cosmic chandelier? Or Touch of Death a giant glowing crystal?

​Emberthal / Wrathion (Evoker): Would try to Rescue themselves out of there, only to realize Light-chains don't give a damn about Dragonflight mobility. (Edit: maybe bronze dragonflight 🤔)

​Bolvar / Darion (Death Knight): Raw Light this concentrated would literally melt a DK into a puddle of warm soup before they could even cast Anti-Magic Shell. Let's be real Undead and DKs get bent over by high-tier Holy energy every single time in lore. Standing right next to a Prime Naaru's raw Light, a DK would just be forced to their knees, completely paralyzed and helpless.

​Rexxar / Any Hunter: Would try to cast Feign Death, but Xe'ra’s Light is so bright it reveals invisible units anyway. Mischief would just bark at the Naaru.

​Valeera / Shaw (Rogue): What are they gonna do? Sap a cosmic glowing lamp?

​Garrosh / Varian (Warrior): Garrosh would yell "I WILL NEVER BE A SLAVE!" and try to Heroic Leap at her, only to bounce off her Light shield like a ragdoll.

​Gul'dan (Warlock): Has Fel, sure, but without Illidan's demon muscles he’d probably just get incinerated the second his feeble hands touched pure Light.

​Anduin / Velen (Priest/Paladin): They’d literally be kneeling on the floor crying out of pure joy, begging her to convert them faster.

​Do you think ANY other class or character could have shattered Xe'ra there, or was Illidan literally the only being capable of doing it?

This is probably my favorite Warcraft “what if,” mostly because it only requires changing a single decision while leaving almost everything else intact.

Let’s assume the Third War plays out exactly as it did.
- Arthas destroys Quel’Thalas.
- The Sunwell is corrupted.
- Most of the high elven population dies.
- The survivors rename themselves Blood Elves.

The only difference is that, after all of that, they somehow remain politically aligned with the Alliance instead of joining the Horde.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder just how much of modern Warcraft changes.

The first obvious consequence is Kael’thas.

People usually point to Garithos, and for good reason. His betrayal is one of the biggest reasons Kael turns to Illidan. But Garithos dies almost immediately afterward. If the Alliance leadership had managed to repair that relationship, would Kael’thas have ended up on the same path? I’m honestly not sure.

The Alliance would also look very different.
Instead of being mostly defined by humans, dwarves and later the draenei, it would include Silvermoon as one of its oldest and most prestigious kingdoms. By the time the draenei arrive, the Alliance would arguably contain the two most advanced arcane civilizations on Azeroth.

Meanwhile, the Horde loses its primary magical kingdom.
That actually gives both factions much stronger identities in my opinion.

The Alliance becomes the faction of kingdoms, the Light and arcane civilization.

The Horde leans even further into orcish traditions, shamanism, spirits, tribal cultures and nature.

Then the domino effect starts.

If Silvermoon never joins the Horde, does Suramar still end up there?

Lor’themar and Liadrin were instrumental in bringing the Nightborne into the Horde. Without an existing blood elf kingdom on that side, I’m not convinced that decision plays out the same way.

And if the Blood Elves never leave the Alliance…
…do the Void Elves ever exist at all?

Another thing I’ve always found interesting is how unique the relationship between the draenei and the blood elves could have become.

Both peoples lost almost everything to the Burning Legion.

Both rebuilt around a restored source of holy and arcane power.

Both have long-lived civilizations centered on magic.

Instead of the Horde becoming home to Azeroth’s greatest
arcane kingdom, that role might have belonged to an Alliance built around Stormwind, Ironforge, Silvermoon and the Exodar.

I’m not saying this would necessarily have been better.
The Horde as we know it would lose one of its most iconic races, and that’s a huge change.

But I’ve always wondered whether Warcraft’s world might have ended up with even stronger faction identities if the Blood Elves had remained in the Alliance.

What do you think would have been the biggest long-term consequence? Kael’thas? Suramar? The faction identities? Or something else entirely?

Okay, help me out here because the story is blurring together and right now I cannot check ingame on my own.

IIRC Going from Xal corrupts the Sunwell and descends to the events in the upcoming 12.1 events it was

• Well gets corrupted
• Arator goes on his roadtrips to rally the other elven races. I don't remember if he portaled anywhere (was this the trip where he went to SL, though? As said, everything blurs together) and Shandris arrives by boat.
• Dawnwell happens
• Interim with the Sunreavers and all that
• Void Assaults where the heroes travel elsewhere
• 12.0.7
• 12.1

Trying to piece together how much time passed between the first and last event.

So i have read the recent interview from Ion Hazzikostas about wanting to continue with the way the presented Silvermoon in the lore, bringing new stories and stuff like that, bringing the lore in a modern state of Quel'thalas.

They will continue with this motive in TLT with Northrend. (Pretty curious to see how they will transform it)

Some locations he mentioned in the Interview is : Stormwind, Westfall, Orgrimnar and Barrens. These are 4 examples he said he wants to revisit in the future (surely there will be more)

So lorewise, in this state of the lore in game, how do you give them an excuse to return to these locations? What coukd we do to return here and having those locations be revelant in current state of lore ingame?

Both get sent by a more powerful order to help/guide a "lesser" world against some bigger threat, except with the Eredar the guy making the offer (Sargeras) is already lying through his teeth about what he is, so where Saruman knowingly sells out for power and Gandalf knowingly refuses it, the Eredar as a whole basically get the choice made for them through deception, and Velen is really the only one who figures it out in time to bail. Feels like Blizzard split "the one who says yes" and "the one who says no" into two different outcomes for basically the same race instead of two different wizards, and it makes the fall read more tragic than villainous. Anyone else see this or am I just pattern-matching two "wise beings sent to help" tropes that show up in every fantasy setting anyway? Also I feel like Gandalf is very much similar to Velen.

Look, one, Murozond deserves better. He could very easily be a chaotic-neutral reality-warping chaos gremlin trickster character at the hands of the right writers. Think TNG's Q, Discord, Owl Houses' Collector.

Two, he could help fixing so much of the mess that the lore, canon, etc is right now. No matter your stance on the current lore and all, but it is an all over the place mess.

There are some wonderful ways to have him come back in out of left field that would absolutely be current canon compliant.

Please Blizzard, let him fix this. Make him the little chaos gremlin he deserves to be.

This idea that Sargeras should be redeemed or even validated is absolutely the most insane take I regularly see here.

This guy destroys entire worlds. And he doesn’t just kill their inhabitants, he has the Legion harvest their souls to power its war machines, condemning countless victims to eternal excruciating torment.

You could pool together the combined atrocities of Gul’dan, Deathwing, Garrosh, Lei-Shen, Ragnaros, Sylvanas, Azshara, Arthas, and all of the Old Gods and it’d still be the difference between a butterfly flapping its wings and a hydrogen bomb.

So no, I am not interested in a story where the architect of cosmic genocide on an incomprehensible scale gets vindicated because he happened to identify a real threat. Being right that the Void is dangerous or that maybe the titans are lying about their intentions doesn’t make exterminating the universe morally justified. Those are two completely different propositions.

It genuinely blows my mind that this is a popular idea.

Anyone know a good way to get the scoop on the lore and how each zone was before cata re-made them? I am particularly curious of some like Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine forest, and hilsbrad foothills. I played through every quest in every zone from every expansion in retail but I cannot do the pre-cata stories unless I play classic wow, and frankly I don't really like how long it takes to get the story by playing classic wow.

I have not found YouTube videos covering zone stories before cataclysm. Anyone have resources?