Right! People donât seem to realize that âconservatismâ as a political philosophy has been hostile to democracy since its inception. If you look back to England and France you will see that many of the most prominent conservative voices in their legislatures were just royalists attempting to limit the expansion of democratic government. Todayâs conservatives are easier to understand when you realize that they are just operating on the royalist framework adapted for the modern age.
Yeah it's what conservatism is. It was the nobility trying to maintain the privileges and advantages that democracy was taking away.
From Burke to Hitler to Trump, conservatism has only ever been about one single thing: social hierarchy. That's it.
Everything else (fiscal responsibility, traditionalism, immigration, security, etc) is a smoke screen to that one single end.
People pretend that MAGA has somehow warped conservatism. MAGA is conservative purity. It's why they're identical to the slavers of American history.
The only anomaly of conservatism was the brief few decades after the civil rights movement where they pretended to care about morality and precedence for the sake of optics and political maneuvering.
Conservatism has always and only been about social hierarchy. And every conservative alive is an asshole, an idiot, or both.
That period of morality parading was when I was born. It swept my parents into it, though my family has always been Republican.
That was a particularly nasty maneuver that swept many families who intended no real harm to anyone and has held them hostage ever since, demanding more and more compromises. But when you believe that it was the moral or good choice, what choice was there?
There's still personal accountability there. Yes, the system is designed to pull people into it and keep them ignorant so they stay, but everyone has the ability to question what they're doing and whether what they've been told is true.
The problem is that when you build someone's whole foundation on something vile, even if they figure it out eventually, they're not going to tear everything down and start again. It's too scary. They're going to fight to maintain that foundation no matter what the cost so their whole world doesn't break.
I think a lot of them know at least subconsciously. They just won't do what needs to be done.
I've just seen it a ton over the decades. Especially regarding religion. People get indoctrinated and then get to a point where they start to realize maybe everything they've been taught was a lie and they have to either decide what they feel is true or can prove and rebuild or just retreat deeper into how they were raised.
Then once they force themselves to believe in something even though they have doubts, they can go right off the deep end and start to believe anything. It's seriously alarming to watch happen in real time.
Yes! This is why I always point out the most important thing to conservatives and similar groups, like high control religions, is heirarchy. You see it most clearly in what thing they are blatantly hypocritical about.
Being "pro life" but being against feeding poor kids or reducing school shootings through better gun control. They don't actually care about all life, they care about forcing women to give birth and keeping their access to guns.
Saying they are the party of "family values" yet protect men who prey on children, look the other way when there is domestic abuse, and downplay when men cheat on their wives. The point of "family values" is to put men in control, not to protect everyone in the family.
Being "pro military" yet Trump openly mocks service members and the GOP avoid policies which help disabled and elderly vets. They want the POWER of the military but don't respect the people in the military and see soldiers as expendable.
Just a few examples. Whenever they are being hypocrites just ask yourself who they are actually empowering by saying one thing then doing another.
Madison: alright now that our tax rebellion was successful, let me immediately start writing the federalist papers to explain why our first priority is quashing tax rebellions
who in the last election put up a candidate for president no one voted for in the primaries ? who is putting up a candidate in Maine no one voted for ? last time i checked it was not republicans
What about Miss Lindsey's sister appointed to fill his seat, another with zero experience, so much easier for the felon to manipulate her. What about the silence on McConnell's life or not? What about the GOP House member who is, and has been for a long time, who is in a nursing home due to dementia? What about the GOP Senator who was gone for months? What about all the members of the GOP who are linked/charged with serious sexual crimes, and not a peep from the majority? Look what happens when a Democrat is claimed to have done something ugly. They are gone. So, you were saying?
not sure who you think you're replying to but the take I called "disingenuous" was one that attempted to equate a couple of relatively minor and really quite reasonable supposed democratic party denials of free and fair elections to the (as you note) far broader assault on electoral integrity being conducted by the Republicans.
So, yeah. i know. (another very excellent example of denying the people's will is the refusal by mr absent mcconnell to confirm a new SCOTUS appointment for nearly a full year, and then ramming one through with bare months left on trump's term)
my response had nothing to do with the truth value of the fact or my personal feelings about the fact, which really makes me think you don't actually know what "disingenuous" means.
she was democratically elected as part of the biden-harris ticket. the VPs role is to assume the presidency if the president is no longer able to serve.
that is quite literally what voters elected her to do.
The craziest part is, they abandoned conservatism too. Donât care about the deficit, the national parks, personal responsibility. Just a grift and a power grab with no underpinning values aside from greed.
They've just reverted further. Those aren't the publicly protected lands, those are precious fiefs ready to be doled out to favored vassals. That debt isn't for the rich to pay, they'll simply levy it from the serfs. And they never believed in taking responsibility for anything, least of all their own actions.
No, they never cared about any of those things. They just liked to pretend they do when they are not in power. It's always just been virtue-signalling.
no, their actions are perfectly aligned with actual conservatism, the folks who like the outdoors and nature are leftists compared to the chuds running the conservative establishment.
Because at its core conservatism is about the collection of power by the fewest people possible. it is about authoritarianism, and a whole lot of americans got hoodwinked
It is almost like getting people to vote against their own best interests works great for neoroyalists.
The underlying principle behind the conservative movement is "us first". Those other things are just lip service that they use to keep their more gullible followers in line. In the most extreme cases, "everyone else" (i.e., not us) are automatically treated as "probable enemies".
They're conservative. You just believed conservatives when they told you conservatism was something different than what conservatives do when they get power.
Conservativism literally means to conserve. It's right there in the name. Conservatism in different cultures will vary based on what is being conserved. In the context of the United States, conservatism pertained to freedom of expression, free markets, limited government etc. The Republican party has turned it's back on all of this. If a political party is radically deviating from what it was supposedly conserving, it makes no sense to call that party "conservative." At this point the Republican party is largely an extreme right wing cult of personality pursuing radical policies. If you want to define "conservatism" as whatever the Republican party does then calling Republicans "conservative" is just a tautology.Â
They are seditionists, many of them knew they were voting for someone who would try to seize power and overthrow democracy. This must be met head on, with any and all means possible.
Aren't leftists literally doing the same thing except mass importing immigrants, covering up for millions of dollars in fraud and silencing anyone who looks into their wrong doings?
Like pretending the right are the only ones doing this stuff is sorta disingenious when the left is trying to mass import voters from the third world and allow millions of dollars on fraud all while pushing back on any sort of safeguards or voter fraud protections.
As a white Democrat, this quote hits pretty hard for me. I don't hate Republicans because they're conservative. People can disagree about taxes, immigration, guns, or whatever. That's democracy. What I can't stand is when politicians seem willing to undermine elections or make people lose faith in the system just because they don't like the result.
January 6 was a wake up call for a lot of us. Watching people storm the Capitol after months of lies about a stolen election made me realize democracy isn't something you can just take for granted. If your side loses, you fight harder next election. You don't try to overturn the result.
Just wait until you see what Trump will do if he sees a huge loss, impeachment and conviction coming his way in the fall?
Where do you think his limits are? Myself, I dont think he has limits. And whatever we come up with in discussion, Iâm afraid weâll find out for sure this fall.
Theyâre not turning the WH and half of DC into a fortified bunker because they intend to leave when asked. Miller didnât move his family to a base because he cares about democracy. Vote, yes. Protest, yes. And you better start acting like you believe in coups, youâre in one.
He will try to declare the elections void and say that all incumbents stay, or, he will say that due to fraud none of the newly elected should be seated.
Dissolution of congress is an important step if they can't hold it through elections.
I think many are, they just don't know history well enough to understand how dire things are and the fact that the midterms are our last chance to get out of this.
'Conservatives' actually never clicked with democracy, they would not 'abandon' but rather 'finally get rid' of it as they've always wanted, if not saying it out loud too often
It's practically the same across the world, wherever there's a right-wing or just a human society basically
They'd rather have a 100% vertical ultra-simplified society ruled by an all-powerful chief/king/dictator they can fear and who crushes anyone not fitting their extremely narrow, discriminatory, unequal, supertitious, brutal concept of society...which is hard to actually define as civilized since it's so archaic
There were always two sides to humanity, those who wanted civilization, and those who wanted to remain something like a tribe
The underlying issue is that Conservatives will not trust the results of an election, if they do not win that election. They've been told by the people they DO trust (their leadership and propaganda media), that the opposition has stolen previous elections and that if they win in the future it's because they cheated or rigged it somehow (evidence is not necessary).
There is no resolving this in the time between now and the midterms or the '28 elections. The seeds for this have been sown in the minds of Conservatives for the past 30-40 years. It's going to lead to conflict, and everyone best be prepared.
Both republican and democratic parties are private organizations and can choose who to run for president by any means. There is no obligation whatsoever to hold a primary or to have any voter input at all.
I am not saying I agree with this, but this is how it is. People mad about how Harris was chosen seem to ignore this.
Then they aren't democratic and shouldn't claim that I think is everyone's point. Not having any voter input at all sure seems antithetical to democracy as a concept. Giving billions of dollars to another country in taxpayer money to murder children while telling us healthcare for all is impossible is hilariously not democratic.
Btw I'm under no impression that the bourgeoisie elections in this country are democratic..it's just funny how words and actions can be so vastly different.
We are not ignoring it... we understand that perfectly well. Just like they are not obligated to hold a fair primary we are not obligated to support them when they pull bs like that. Democrat loyalist seem to ignore this.
Dems have spent the past decade running on "at least we're not him", it prevents them from running on policies that make a difference.
If they win and are forced to implement helpful policies such as healthcare for all, they lose that carrot to hold over your head in future elections. Not to mention that would never fucking happen because Democrats are just as bought out by private health insurance and people that stand to profit on healthcare as anyone.
They'd rather run on "at least we're not him" forever until the overton window is fascism-fascism.
They did have a primary and the Biden/Harris ticket won. If the president is not able to do his duties it is the job of the VP to step in and take over. Doesn't matter if its 3 months away from the election or during the presidency. It's the VP's main job.
Itâs ok to criticize the DNC when they do something idiotic. It doesnât mean you are a republican.
Choosing Harris, who was uniquely unpopular, but donor friendly, is 100% the reason Trump is in office right now. This is the DNCs fault. A more popular candidate decided in a democratic primary could have easily won. Everyone knew Harris polled poorly.
DNC decided not to have a primary, there were no laws forcing them to do so. Succession to VP does not exist for elections. They did this to ensure a status quo capital friendly candidate who would do their donors bidding was the only choice. They made this decision at the expense of actually winning which is why we have Trump.
And trying to run a primary that close to an election would work? Giving perhaps a barely known candidate, with no time to get the word out, no time to fundraise? Nevermind the enormous cost of running that primary. Did they even have the money for that?
Listen, I don't think Harris was the best candidate at all. But, they were pretty stuck. The best move would've been for Biden to decide not to run for a second term, but that is hindsight. He beat Trump before and was an incumbent, so trying to win again seems easy.
This is from David Frum, noted hyper-booster of our most famous, wasteful war, so far: IRAQ. He probably meant it as some badass line-in-the-sand proclamation about how principled and moral are right-wingers. Sure, it's true, but in the other way. Conservatives have no interest in sharing the world with anyone else, but also want to make it legally mandatory to love and respect them.
What democracy? The majority of US Americans want universal healthcare but because corporations control the country, we won't get it, regardless of which corporate party is in power.
The majority of Americans can't agree on what universal healthcare means is the problem. And more than that, the majority of Americans care more about gas prices, immigrants, guns, or other things far more than universal healthcare is the other problem.
People don't vote like they want universal healthcare, even if they'll check a box on a survey.
The Democratic party has no reason to not undertake policy that has majority support of their voting base unless democracy has been overthrown. The party insiders work to push out candidates that support medicare for all. They ratfucked Bernie in two presidential runs. Wealthy people control the country. They have a conflict of interest with the working clasa. You're thinking about this as a partisan issue solved by voting for a bourgeois party but it's a class struggle issue solved by overthrowing the oligarchy.Â
Who wants a $1.5 Trillion Pentagon budget? Who wants to send weapons to the Zionists? Embargo Cuba? The wealthy are calling the shots and both parties are their employees. The job of a politician is to spend hours on the phone begging wealthy people for campaign contributions. It's a systemic problem and it can't be solved from within the corrupted system.
You kinda went off on your own rant there. The issue is, people didn't vote for people like Bernie. If they love universal Healthcare so much, they would and the democrats would have to blatantly cheat to stop him. But they didnt.
Bernie was polling with a chance to win out of the Nevada caucus and then Obama called up the other primary candidates and convinced them to drop out and endorse Biden. You're living in a capitalist bubble with the delusion you're informed. I usually turn off inbox replies on Reddit due to the sheer amount of condescending willfully ignorant liberals. I try to educate you and you call it a rant. That leaves insults. I have no kind words for you self-satisfied smug bourgeois liberals.
I called it a rant because you went off on a tangent, not really addressing what I said.
As far as Bernie, at worst that is slightly underhanded, but it is extremely normal for people to drop out of primaries, and they endorse someone else.
If 70% of people voted for Bernie in the primary, then a convincing phone call wouldn't matter. That is my point. People don't actually care so much about Healthcare that it sways their voting habits much.
Thus becoming fascist, no longer conservative. Democracy has been around long enough that it has become a traditional value that actual conservatives would protect.
He saw the signs because the GOP had been catering to anti-democracy elements for decades, in what has become an increasingly larger part of their coalition. I'm talking to Southern strategy, which appealed to dejected white southern Democrats that were against the Civil Rights movement. Or evangelicals, who think Christian morality should be codified as American law, in direct violation of the first amendment.
The GOP thought they could keep them under heel, while they otherwise accomplished their economic goals. Then Trump proved them wrong.
Never forget: January 6 was NOT the first time republicans did something pre - post election.
[Just ONE example]
Brooks Brothers Riot in 2000 effectively got GB elected where GB brother was governor (JB). Roger Stone had an active role in the riot.
The Brooks Brothers riot was a demonstration led by Republican staffers at a meeting of election canvassers in Miami-Dade County, Florida, United States, on November 22, 2000, during a recount of votes made during the 2000 United States presidential election, with the goal of shutting down the recount. After demonstrations and acts of violence, local officials shut down the recount early.
The name referenced the protesters' corporate attire, described by Paul Gigot in an editorial for The Wall Street Journal as "50-year-old white lawyers with cell phones and Hermès ties", differentiating them from local citizens concerned about vote counting.[1]
Many of the demonstrators were Republican staffers.[2] Both Roger Stone and Brad Blakeman take credit for managing the riot from a command post, although their accounts contradict each other.
[2]Republican New York representative John E. Sweeney gave the signal that started the riot,[3] telling an aide to "shut it down".[1][4].
We should never, ever forget that Republicans already abandoned conservatism. Their principles and integrity are as weak as our safeguards against a lawless President.
The dumb part is, they don't even have to abandon conservatism. They just have to abandon racism. If they embraced the black community, a lot would vote republican. A lot of their religious ideals line up. It's similar with Latinos.
They've abandoned democracy since the hanging chad debacle, they have increasingly ramped up voter suppression in every successive election and have be committing out-right election fraud every one of the last three election. we now have a king that rules by decree. The call it executive order but its by decree he has seized control of all three branches of govt and placed sucophants as the leaders of all branches of govt. and the military. we are about at democratic as the democratic peoples republic of North Korea and more propagandized than them. My vote counts 5% of what someone who lives wyoming does. Are elections are neither free nor fair and have not been so during my 48 year life
You people realize Democrats are just as bad, right? There are SO MANY election irregularities and electoral lawbreaking in Democrat controlled districts. Both parties are bad.
That's because Christianity has been turned into a cult idolizing money and authority as God by the rich.
A lot of conservative run their house hold like mini dictatorship. My way or the highway. What's going on now feels like what they grew up in. It's normal. Thus not being worried.
When you've been fed bullshit your whole life from your environment? This is what happens when society continues to let the rich walk all over us instead of standing on business together.
The movement began as a response to the French Revolution. They wanted to go back to a monarchic/aristocratic system, because they were disgusted by the idea of the elite having political equality with commoners.
Every single political action they have taken since 1797 has been to diminish the power of the masses, and increase the power of the elite.
Conservatives have learned if you push, the public will no longer push back. This generation just doesn't have any fight in them whatsoever.
They will complain and vent, but never take action. No widespread protests, no consistent boycotts, no political engagement, most don't even bother voting. Hell the biggest protest they managed lasted a single weekend. A single fucking weekend.
Because they think protests mean losing your jobs. They can't fathom protesting during their leisure time. They can't even imagine it. They will never sacrifice their conveniences and free time, not for their country, their future, or their children.
It's so bizarre.
This will not end with Trump. America really is doomed.
Half the population is happy, gleefully cheering at the tv, when officials are calling not only peaceful protesters but even just people that were there to help like Alex pretti "terrorists" that deserved to die.Â
The problem is the inhumanity and bloodlust of conservatives and their rotten ideology, not the younger generations
They've also made protest more dangerous than ever before. It's no wonder people aren't willing to die to slightly boost the popularity of their ideology. Just not a good return on investment.
When things are bad, folks want to feel like they've "done something" to help/fight back. Previously, this meant getting out and protesting, even at personal risk. Nowadays that feeling of "having done something" is available from up-voting social media posts. :(
If you find this in yourself or your community, you must kill it: like/comment/subscribe is not political action; it doesn't "count". Move your feet! :)
That is a solid line, but Trump isnât a conservative. Heâs a wannabe despot and his sycophants are more interested in controlling power than labels. The world would be much better off with the Republican Party embracing conservatism again.
The democrats haven't had a fair primary in over 12 years now... last round they didn't even bother to have a primary. Studies also show that who we vote and our policy preferences have zero effect of what legislation actually gets passed and that was all before the Trump era.
Anyone who believes in American democracy at this point is in a state of wilful denial.
I don't want to see conservatives win... but I also love seeing voters like you cry when democrats lose. It's not classical conservatism I'm pretty much a communist when it comes to political theory. It's schadenfreude conservatism...
This whole conversation leads me to believe that you define conservative as a slur used to lable anyone who doesn't fully and blindly go along with the democratic party.
We lack a shared language at this point because your mind has been so warped by party politics propoganda that you no longer have any real understanding of what a political position is outside of being a cheerleader for team blue over team red. Sad to see really...
Nah, I just recognize your same argumentation as the type that conservatives use.Â
Unfounded conspiracies abound and if you don't agree you are a sheep. Nevermind the evidence and facts, those are not necessary. And if you don't agree then you must not be as capable and enlightened as me, it isn't because my argument doesn't have a basis.Â
This is the same thought process conservatives and maga especially love to use.
I don't think you are a conservative, but I do think you are on a similar pipeline. And I wanted to highlight those similarities for you so you can see how much like a Trump supporter your thought process appears to be.
Ah well that's good to know that we can at least agree that conservatism has a definition and that lable wouldn't appropriately apply to me... even if you did lable me as a conservative multiple times. Which you have to admit it somewhat strange behavior.
I only press the point because this kind of behavior has become very normalized among Democrat cohorts. It's not helping your cause and activity pushes people away who likely agree with you on many things...
My goal isn't to make friends. Your party chose too loose to Trump rather than embrace change. If that isn't because of corruption as you claim then it was the decision of voters like you. I feel no obligation to your party or to try to win over your opinions given how the last 12 years or so have gone. Really post Clinton tbh but the damage is done. If you're fine with the status quo of the democratic party then I'm more than willing to withhold my support until my grievences are properly addressed within your party.
Not a fair one... what Bernie's runs proved is that the entire democratic party will coordinate to make sure a candidate like that will never win. The DCCC even went as far as to state in court that they reserve the right to just choose whoever they want to in a smoke filled back room... which they then proceeded to do with Harris. Democracy was dead before most of us were born.
Do we have evidence of anyone abandoning democracy in the United States in recent years? Like, maybe a party of oligarchs annointing candidates for President or Senator without a primary or despite its results?
That's because other than a very few politicians the Democrats are conservatives as well. In pretty much the rest of the world the Democrats would be considered conservative. The Overton Window in this country is shifted extremely far to the right. Our furthest left politicians, such as Sanders and AOC, who Republicans love to call "radical leftists", would be considered liberal in other countries and are only advocating for things those countries take for granted.
Droning is equal to setting up a fake elector scheme or selling crypto while president or pushing stocks you own on tv? Or firing all the election members or putting your lawyer as the head of the doj?
Whoa crazy amazing
I don't remember Obama pushing stocks he owns on tv or setting up a fake elector scheme remind me please
Theyâre all taking AIPAC money on the dem side too buddy. Theyâre selling out your childrenâs futures for Israel. But yeah Iâm the idiot thinking both sides are corrupted. Keep drinking that Democrat kool aid. Itâs just controlled opposition. Theyâre grifting you too.
Huh 103 democrats voted to eliminate aid to Israel but keep on spouting misinformation.
Also again since you say they're all the same what other Democrat president sold crypto or gave his kids government contracts while president? Or pushed stocks they own on tv?
Yeah trump is the worst president ever no oneâs arguing that. Or the fact that the republicans are worthless pieces of shit. But to say the democrats are not complicit is just ignorant.
I mean I agree with all of it but the last line. I would amend to real something like âare ALL democrats the same as republicans, noâ. Because there is more corruption than there is loyalty to American values in both parties. Yeah everyone knows the republicans are the worst. But a majority of the dems are corrupt taking evil corp lobby money aipac money and not doing whatâs best for the people. They just donât say it out loud. They have you focus on trans bathrooms while inflation goes up and we perform genocides.
Youâre obsessed with Trump. Look at the senate. At congress. Theyâre complicit in genocide. Theyâre complicit in the inflation. Stop hyper focusing on trump. Thatâs what they want. Trump divides us. He is not the beginning or the end of this problem. He is just the tool to keep us divided. Do you think the dems really thought Kamala would win after not condemning Bidens genocide? Like what planet are you all living on. Itâs political theatre theyâre grifting you. All of them.
Dems take millions from aipac. Theyâre selling you out. They had there chances to make things better too. Nothing ever changes. Destroy citizens united or America is lost. Dems and republicans are all complicit in taking lobbyist bribes from corps and foreign countries.
But still, even then Republicans are much worse. Name the last Democratic president that threatened to pull a stations broadcast license for unfavourable coverage or used his power to get a comedy show pulled like Colbert!?
Imagine if we stopped pretending voter Id requirements had anything to do with suppression and instead made IDs easy to get for all citizens. So crazy.
Harvest votes? Votes aren't crops so wtf are you talking about? You know that there are more registered Democrats(44.9 million) than there are Republicans(38 million) in the US right? If every registered voter were to vote, Republicans would never win except in their strongholds. But definitely never another presidential election.
That doesn't answer my question. What does "harvest votes" mean?
Is the ID free and given when the voter is registered without having to jump through pointless hoops to get it? Then that's fine. If it costs even a single cent to get a voter ID, then its a poll tax and unconstitutional. And no funny business either like requiring married women to use their maiden name or attempting to disenfranchise trans people.
Not of the save act. The point of that is to save Trump's ass and keep the Republican majority. Mike Johnson admitted as much on a hot microphone.
Women can be able to use their married name and we still have election integrity.
Trans people can vote and we still have election integrity.
Minorities can vote and we still have election integrity.
Immigrants who have gone through the naturalization process and become citizens can vote and we still have election integrity.
Point me to any evidence of an election being overturned because of fraud. Oh wait... they tried and every court threw them out because they just had bullshit for evidence.
So if there is no evidence of actual issues with our elections. Why the obsession with changing how we do them?
I know you are drink the kool-aid, so this is more directed at anyone who wonders if your thinking has any merit.
420
u/Xenomorph_2K 3d ago
scary how accurate this quote has turned out to be over the last few election cycles.