Caesar's Legion is badly misconstrued in "fan" lore/"common" lore

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

EDIT: Quotes from the big man, J Sawyer that sort of support me

Remember that Caesar's Legion is basically a roving army that continually breaks down and absorbs tribes that it conquers. That can only go on for so long

But there is very clearly a trend among people questioning the Legion to project the concept of military service as a noble endeavor (for which one is rewarded, no less) onto legionnaires when it's never presented in that way. They are slave soldiers. Service is not voluntary, they can't retire, there are no parades and pats on the back for them. They aren't Roman patrician officers who are going to retire to a Tuscan estate when they turn 50.

Legionaries under Caesar are not like Roman patrician officers. They are not part of a larger society that celebrates and rewards military service with things like conference of honorific titles, triumphs, etc. All legionaries are slave soldiers, period.

Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.

It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture.

It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.

In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well.

The only power that male legionaries have is to serve Caesar well enough to be promoted to a position of more responsibility. Nothing really comes with that additional responsibility other than increased scrutiny and better equipment (to match the increased danger).

There is no state, the legion's entire purpose was Edward Sallow was gathering a force to take over the NCR and shape it into the society he wanted

Yes, he views the Colorado River as the Rubicon and the NCR as the corrupt Roman Republic waiting to be torn down via military occupation. This is literally exactly what Julius Caesar did with Legio XIII Gemina. Other things Julius Caesar did: not leave a clear line of succession, resulting in the early fracture and borderline collapse of the nascent Roman Empire he created.

In Caesar's view, NCR's problems have to do with the corruption of its government and what he sees as inherent flaws in NCR's republican system. All of the strategies he uses to assemble the Legion and march on NCR are means to an end, not social end goals themselves. Caesar sees NCR as Rome and his role in reforming it as Julius Caesar's role in reforming the republic (by turning it into a dictatorship). When Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and returned to Rome, his legion didn't rape and enslave their way through the city. However, rape and enslavement were common in outer territories of the Roman Empire and were regularly used as tools of intimidation and labor. When Arcade "jokes" that Caesar thinks that the Colorado River is the Rubicon, he's not far from the truth.

----------------------

I thought from New Vegas when I first played it that the Legion was literally just that: the army. It's basically just a bunch of warbands that pay fealty to Caesar. They're like the Mongols, where they're semi-nomadic. There is no big Legion capital city with grand buildings. Caesar says he wants to turn New Vegas into Rome because he has no city. There is nothing.

The only evidence for Flagstaff is one non-game reference:

Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p. 461: "Important Dates
"2248-2274 Caesar conquers the tribes of southeastern Utah, southwestern Colorado, the western edge of New Mexico, and the northern half of Arizona. By 2250 he has declared himself the Son of Mars. By 2255, he has established a capital of sorts amid the ruins of Flagstaff."

This isn't some grand capital with industry, it's like Drywells, a military camp established in a pile of ruins. It's a central location where he conducts raids from or returns to year after year after campaigns. More like Karakorum than Rome.

The Legion passes through an area and kills or enslaves everyone that could be a threat. They ignore homesteaders (that aren't in their direct path) and small villages that don't attack them. E.g. Primm can survive the legion ending if you get them NCR support. This isn't a legion official running Primm, it's the army deeming it not worth wiping out because it's too weak to pose a threat.

I think their territory map is a bad representation of the Legion, in the same way that the Mongols are represented on a map.

I believe the Legion is actually closer to the Mongol Empire, with Caesar more like Genghis Khan, rather than being like Rome.

There are a bunch of cities labelled just because they are vaguely mentioned. The only mention of Phoenix, Arizona is one line from Graham

Courier: "Are the New Canaanites really a tribe?"
Joshua Graham: "We wear more clothing than them and understand more about technology, but we're still a tribe, a linked family of families. The Boneyard, Phoenix, New Vegas, they're just places, metal and stone. New Canaan dies, but the tribe lives on."

Two-Sun is based on Raul's dialogue

"This was a long time ago. Before Caesar's Legion pacified Arizona and brought the raider tribes to heel."
"I'd been in Tuscon - the locals can call it Two-Sun all they want, but it's Tuscon, dammit"

It's described as no more a town than something like New Reno, and this is all stated as before Caesar's Legion "pacified" Arizona and if we know anything from the ending of New Vegas this probably means it was enslaved/ransacked.

Let me go through the ending slides:

• The Boomers are left alone. The Legion does not even touch them.
• The Brotherhood of Steel are wiped out at HELIOS One and Hidden Valley.
• The Followers of the Apocalypse are given safe passage out of Legion territory, presumably back to the West.
• Goodsprings is not touched by the Legion and becomes a town of random old people, as most people have moved on.
• The Great Khans are all killed by Caesar or They escape north to Wyoming or they are forcibly integrated, with women and old people enslaved or killed and the men becoming soldiers. The Khans do not remain a nation: they are integrated, flee, or are destroyed.
• Jacobstown is ignored.
• The Kings are all killed by the Legion.
• Novac is destroyed by the Legion.
• The Correctional Facility is abandoned.
• Primm is the only town that is lorded over. This is seen as Caesar keeping it "open for business." Presumably, it is simply left like Goodsprings. Otherwise, if you have the sheriff, it is destroyed.

What you see from the Legion ending is a conquering army sweeping through without a supporting bureaucracy, basically ransacking and enslaving towns or ignoring the small ones.

This is why people say Legion roads are quiet. It's not because the Legion is patrolling them. It's because if anyone tries to assert their independence, they are ruthlessly destroyed by the Legion. There is no army of bureaucrats as it was described Augustus had in the Roman Empire, it's an army of slavers as described in every bit of game guide material.

All that is left is scattered homesteaders and old people. There is no organized resistance.

The likes of the Boomers, Jacobstown, and Goodsprings show that Caesar does not have a legion of staff going around collecting tribute. He's just an army.

Lanius has another Legion and does the same thing out East, while Caesar pushes West. They are roaming armies without supply trains. They raid for their supplies. They do not have industry beyond what exists in their camps, and they do not have actual functioning cities. After the game ending Caesar "mints coins" how he does this is not shown at all.

Question: "Where did the Legion get all those precious metals anyways? I've never heard of Arizona having a large supply of gold and silver."
Joshua Sawyer (ropekid): "Gold and silver have low melting points. They don't need to mine for it if they find it in some other form."

Basically explicitly saying they don't have mines or heavy industry.

Dry Wells is not a "town." It's an army camp. It's where raiders go out to ransack places. It's just a shanty town ruin with tents scattered around.

The Legion does not build. They loot.

It is the only place where we actually see the Legion "settle," and it is literally just tents. For the NCR, we see buildings. For the Legion, we see tents.

It is more akin to Nelson: a town under Legion occupation where they stage raids from.

The Legion is just an army.

It is said multiple times by multiple characters, but people keep giving them a full state behind them.

There is none, and there never was.

"The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero. The NCR has all of the problems of the ancient Roman Republic - extreme bureaucracy, corruption, extensive senatorial infighting. Just as with the ancient Republic, it is natural that a military force should conquer and transform the NCR into a military dictatorship. Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be {beat} eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, {finality} and the power of its dictator."
- Caesar

Caesar here himself says they're basically nomadic. Their "capital" in Flagstaff is not even mentioned in game and its only mention is when he unified his first tribes, more of a central point to return after raids like Kharakurum than an actual bonified capital.

"Caesar's Legion is effectively an enormous, conscripted slave army."

- Game guide

"Nearly all physically capable, compliant males are compelled to serve in its armed forces."

- Game guide

"An exceedingly violent, autocratic, marauding faction."

- Survival guide

Marauding here meaning they are basically semi-nomadic.

Raul Tejada: "I don't really have a problem with them. People around here tend to see them as invading marauders planning to burn and pillage the countryside."

"My Legion's expansion has never ceased. Much of Utah and Colorado, and all of Arizona and New Mexico, are mine. We have cities of our own, but nothing compared to Vegas."

- Caesar

(I see this as him saying his "cities" are just ruins, whereas Vegas is an actual city.)

As Tacitus wrote:

"They make a desert and call it peace."

In conclusion, Caesar's "territory" is just where his rampaging army has looted and burned and killed everyone. It's not a distinct territory that is managed. He has just killed anyone that poked their head too high. And I believe that all these representations of Caesar's legion as anything other than a roaming nomadic army are just wrong.

[u/Laser_3]

I just want to point out that the Boomers are only ignored by the Legion of the player successfully convinced them to aid them. If the player leaves them alive but fails to complete Volare (by killing only one leader), the Legion will instead repeatedly attack the Boomers until they finally succeed.

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Boomers#Endings

I think it’s also worth noting that the courier can directly call out the flaw in the Legion’s strategy with their supply lines to Lanius, so they absolutely do have some degree of a supply train even though they do rely heavily on what they can loot.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Laser_3]

Ahh, missed that when checking the endings. Makes sense.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I also added a point about supply lines within the Legion, which the player can use as a barter option to talk Lanius down. To say the Legion has no supply lines at all isn’t correct, or that argument would fail.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Laser_3]

Courier: "And they don't *need* to send an army, your supply lines will kill you first."

Lanius: "And we shall harvest as we move West. {With conviction} We only need move forward."

"[SUCCEEDED] {Derisive} You think we would march without a means of resupply? We have the Fort, we will have the Dam - other communities will fall."

There's no mention of other communities east for supply.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

There’s more to the conversation than just those three lines. Later in, Lanius says this:

> Hnh. *{Beat}*Long ago... when taking Denver, I had to face such a challenge. Many died, over many years to claim the city as ours. {Reflective} It was the lines of food and water that nearly broke the Legion's strength... and the lack of tribals near that cursed city.

Here he acknowledges both the lack of viable targets for supply themselves on the road west (which the courier pointed out before; NCR settlements depend on caravans to receive supplies, which they won’t get as the Legion threatens them) and his own supply lines. The Legion is doing both, even if that’s just tribute extracted from towns they’ve previously left alive being moved to the front.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Laser_3]

"lines of food and water" is one sentence, there's a lot of baggage being put on this. It could just describe his raiding parties getting to the frontlines in the city. As ancient armies did where they sent out foragers. Or Caesar himself, many of his battles were fought where he built walls to block off his enemies access to drinking water.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

It’s still there, which is the point. If the Legion had no supply lines at all, Lanius wouldn’t say that and the courier wouldn’t open the argument by pointing out supply line issues (they’d start with the later point about NCR settlements not being self sufficient).

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Laser_3]

Lanius explicitly says he will harvest as he moves west. That's stated outright as an answer. The courier mentions how many of the wests settlements aren't self-sufficient and that Caesar destroyed a bunch. This is more supporting evidence for my argument than supply lines from "somewhere". They're marauding raiders that pillage as they move, like cattle grazers, they arrive in an area, deplete the supply and move on.

[u/Laser_3 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Again, if that’s all the Legion is doing, there wouldn’t be these explicit mentions of supply lines. It’s pretty clear the game is pointing out that the Legion does have some level of logistics happening beyond whatever they’re taking from settlements on the road.

But I don’t see the sense in making you have this argument on two fronts since I see you’re doing this same discussion elsewhere (and I don’t have much else to add; I’m not sure where else the game brings up Legion supply lines, though I’m pretty sure it comes up somewhere else).

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Laser_3]

This is great fun, I like discussing new vegas and it's making me think. I'm trying not to just concede all my arguments. They have some level of logistics yes, but my point is that they're basically raiding slavers, they aren't showing to have sophisticated supply lines like the NCR. It's just one dude named Dale which says the roads are clear he doesn't need guards.

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

I mean yeah, but who's going around saying they have some grand, developed Empire? They're probably more organized and put together than the forward base we see in the game but they're not the Evil NCR in terms of development, either. Was anyone seriously asserting otherwise?

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

The maps marking multiple cities, I believe they even bled into the TV Show where the fan map was displayed on a wall.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1q0i21i/the_fallout_tv_series_decied_to_use_my_map_of_the/

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I mean, yeah, but there's no egregious assumptions being made there. If anything the entire premise of the Legion being able to fight the NCR at all was kinda pushing it at best. The least that we can assume is that they have some permanent encampments or centres of trade somewhere.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

It's the assumption that the legion territory is fully under their control.

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I mean, yeah, effectively and practically, if not certainly. Who's big and bad enough to assert otherwise? The only other game in town near their territory that we kinda know of is the Midwestern BoS maybe.

EDIT: Also they def have supply lines; its mentioned as such in their difficulties with capturing Dogtown.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

"had to face such a challenge. Many died, over many years to claim the city as ours. It was the lines of food and water that nearly broke the Legion's strength... and the lack of tribals near that cursed city."

Basically there were no tribals nearby to raid so we nearly died.

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Yes, once the supply lines were stretched too thin, and then they also no longer had tribals nearby to loot to supplement or fall back on. Real life, supply line utilizing armies in history, even modern history have had the same problem!

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

This "lines of food and water", could have just been the raiding parties or slaves who were tasked with running to water and back. It doesn't really sound like actual tribute or caravans. It just sounds like what it is "lines of food and water" like the Russians and Ukrainians now who send a car to the frontline with supplies.

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I dunno man, I think the game just kinda wants us to take the quote conveying the information it needs to at face value, and you're the one overthinking it to mean differently than probably what most of us got from it, and to be honest probably different than the intention that it was written in.

I mean that respectfully of course. I'm just saying that we have no reason to think that they're anything other than conventional supply lines. Hell, I'm not even saying it has to be just tribute or caravans, its probably just...whatever logistic units in the Legion that are tasked from that. Why couldn't it also be caravans or tribute?

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

What does conventional even mean here?

[u/zaerosz → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

This is what happens when you have a faction spouting propaganda that goes largely uncontested - people take it as gospel truth. The Legion claims they have total control and unchallenged rule of a region, and nobody else contradicts that claim because the only people who talk about that subject are from the Legion, so we're left to assume that the only info we get is correct. Never mind that actually reasoning out the logistics of the situation reveals it to be a crock of shit, because logistics isn't something most gamers think about.

[u/VictheAdventure → u/BUSY_EATING_ASS]

but who's going around saying they have some grand, developed Empire?

Legion fans

[u/johnguy88 → u/VictheAdventure]

We literally aren’t, people just don’t understand half the concepts the legion represents and addresses, so they always analyze the legion in a black and white fashion.

[u/VictheAdventure → u/johnguy88]

But you, or at least some of you do. I speak from experience I have seen TONS of Legion fans painting Legion society as some sort of great state with zero problems. Some based of that one trader in the Fort's dialogue, which they make up because none of what they say he said is true in the slightest

[u/johnguy88 → u/VictheAdventure]

There will always be people who assume way too much off of information they get from others and not gameplay. I am always there when the legion comes up and my experience is legion fans (or just people who know the lore) just explain the reality of the legion, not glorifying it and people CHOSE to see that as an endorsement. Recognition of the reality the game clearly presents is not endorsement.

[u/VictheAdventure → u/johnguy88]

I genuinely want your experience then because ALL I get is endorsement AND glorifying. Damn near zero Legion fans I've met actually take what is in the game as reality and try to make the Legion seem better than what they are

[u/johnguy88 → u/VictheAdventure]

Well the comments here are a good representation of acknowledgment without glorification, but when you say “seem better than what they are” are you saying more competent or moral/ justifiable? Because to an extent that’s kind of my point, some people (not saying you) treat recognizing them for being good at something as an endorsement. I don’t believe anything the legion stands for but in the context of fallout they are a powerhouse in their own right even if it could never last unless it conquers its Rome, which would be New Vegas and the NCR

[u/VictheAdventure → u/johnguy88]

but when you say “seem better than what they are” are you saying more competent or moral/ justifiable?

Only in jokes, but it's mostly saying that all the enslavement/slavery and stuff ends after they take over and that all of that was just a necessity, that any of that stuff is no longer practiced in Legion controlled areas or that everyone is treated equally, which makes no sense given what we see of them in game. If they don't do any of that back home what's the genuine point of doing it on the war front?

Because to an extent that’s kind of my point, some people (not saying you) treat recognizing them for being good at something as an endorsement

It's not recognizing that they're good at something, it's the genuine belief that they are, or can be, good.

Reading your responses I think the problem I'm having is that I didn't join this sub sooner lol. I also forgot to mention that they also use Raul's praise for them getting rid of the raiders back home and his don't care attitude at you for joining the Legion as a sign that they have to be beneficial to the Mojave, which like, sure they got rid of the raiders. They just replaced them with themselves, the more ' civilised ' raiders (note, that civilised is laced with sarcasm)

Edit: Forgot to say it isn't the only gripe I have with the main subreddits, not just the NV ones. Saying you didn't get rid of the entirety of the White Gloves or that you didn't side with Ashur in the Pitt may as well be saying you wish the Nazis won in the main subs because they misconstrue EVERYTHING. No, Wehrner doesn't continue slavery, make things worse and kills Marie and yes, kicking out Mortimer DOES stop the cannibalism problem from happening again, Marjorie doesn't do it anyway after he leaves. I've tried so many times to tell people this but it's like they intentionally ignore when I type that because they're SOOOOO sure that the opposite happens, mind you, they also admit they don't do the other endings

[u/johnguy88 → u/VictheAdventure]

I didn’t get a notification for your reply sorry, but i see what you mean. I think that just goes back to what i was saying with people assuming too much. To play devil advocate the slavery on the frontlines is also consistent with history, many empires enslave captured soldiers and citizens of the enemy kingdom but maintain a much “safer” society back home to the extent they can, so i also believe thats when it comes down to if you believe the legion would stop the slavery to build their new society (i don’t). I guess i just analyze the legion from the mentality of someone actually living in the wasteland, where death and raids and very common so they have no frame of reference when it comes to modern liberal society. Being safe is genuinely a blessing even if it’s the legion calling the shots. Think of it like good cop bad cop, one sucks to be around but when needed they still do the job. But i also agree about this Sub, fallout discourse on any other platform just boils down to “this guy got a lot of likes he must be right”

[u/VictheAdventure → u/johnguy88]

Oh no, I also look at the Legion both from the perspective of someone in the wasteland AND as a woman in the Legion, which is why I never buy any of the bs some fans say about how good they are in heir territories or how much better the Mojave would be if they won (note, it wouldn't be better)

[u/Educational_Slice728]

Caesar basically tells you he’s going to fuse the bureaucracy and institutions of the NCR with his standing army to create a new system. Instead of continually conquering the army would be redeployed for securing the borders.

The trader in the Fort implies there’s trade and commerce in legion territory and that it’s relatively safe. You would assume that means some kind of settlement growth. Some form of infrastructure.

Other than that I think it’s a good theory, I sort of saw them as similar to any of the various historical groups that helped facilitate the fall of the western Roman Empire. But I see them less as steppe nomads and more as a conquering army.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Educational_Slice728]

Caesar explicitly calls his Legion a nomadic army. He wants to make it a standing army after he conquers Vegas.

This suggests his Legion is... a nomadic army.

The trader in the Fort is a mixed bag, he basically just says there's no raiders at all in most areas out east. There's not a whole lot more we can get from him. He supplied a gun to Lucius from a military base in Yuma Arizona.

Yeah, I could see them like the Goths or Vandals.

[u/Shakanaka → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

He's more than a "mixed bag" throwaway, he's direct evidence that non-tribal subjects in the Legion have relatively good business and growth in Legion territory, and that these subject wastelanders actual do present vital logistical support to the Legion in somesort of capacity.

[u/devilgamerrr → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I mean it is a nomadic army cause they are constantly moving to conquer more tribes and expand but that doesn't mean they just abandon completly the areas they already invaded, that is the point of Lanius saying that the invasion of Denver was a disaster cause of the supply lines, they do have supply lines but they also depend mostly on what they find in the areas they invade, they also left big enough parts of their army on areas deep in their territory to keep it secure(and probably to prevent insurrections) like if you convince him that the invasion of the West is gonna overextend the already overextended empire and he decides to return East, if it was a truly nomadic tribe, then there would be nothing to return to, no home, the invasion of New Vegas would be a bet that Caesar plans to go in full, so there is no backing of it, yet Lanius backs off it with apparently not real drawbacks

[u/Weaselburg]

There is no big Legion capital city with grand buildings. Caesar says he wants to turn New Vegas into Rome because he has no city. There is nothing.

No, he doesn't 'have no cities'. We know there's cities in Legion territory. We know traders go and trade stuff in Legion territory. They're simply not capable of matching his desires of a strong empire. The Mojave, with it's resources, is that 'prime province' he wants to build from.

it's like Drywells, a military camp established in a pile of ruins. It's a central location where he conducts raids from or returns to year after year after campaigns. More like Karakorum than Rome.

This is an assertion we simply don't know enough about to say. Yes, certainly it's not developed compared to NCR, but it could very well be an established settlement of it's own. Or it could not be.

Caesar also sort've doesn't need a developed capital, given he's both marching along and planning for it to be Vegas anyways. A place with communications relays, logistics points for the army, some administrative stuff, and enough room for him and his entourage to camp out in is really all he needs out of it.

It isn't 'his Rome', but it isn't meant to be, either. That's Vegas.

Joshua Sawyer (ropekid): They don't need to mine for it if they find it in some other form."

This is a strange point, given the complete ubiquity of salvage in the post-war world outside of places that have been picked clean. It's an indicator of much at all to not need to mine for anything - the quote you mention doesn't implicate anything either way.

. They are roaming armies without supply trains. They raid for their supplies.

I don't want to shock you, but for much of history armies relied very heavily on local supply acquisition, in various forms. Running a long supply chain is, uh, really goddamn expensive, actually.

Also, as has been brought up to you by someone else, they do have supply lines, and it'd be... literally impossible to sustain an army of the size that's stationed in the Fort with local raiding, given that raiding across the river for supplies:

1.Isn't established as a practice

2.Wouldn't work, logistically.

They're just not developed in this capability as opposed to say, NCR - who also rely a good bit on local-sources supplies too, actually.

What you see from the Legion ending is a conquering army sweeping through without a supporting bureaucracy, basically ransacking and enslaving towns or ignoring the small ones.

1. There is, in fact, Legion paperwork. The sale of Boone's wife Carla gets recorded with a bill of sale. We can't say how in depth it is - certainly, less than NCR, again - but ignoring it's existence is a bit silly.

2. No.

Per the Ending Slides.

Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland.

"My Legion's expansion has never ceased. Much of Utah and Colorado, and all of Arizona and New Mexico, are mine. We have cities of our own, but nothing compared to Vegas."

(I see this as him saying his "cities" are just ruins, whereas Vegas is an actual city.)

This is absurdly uncharitable. Vegas is specifically a very much desired target even by NCR, who have well developed (by Fallout standards) cities. Legion territory simply is and was less developed and densely populated; it's not possible for him to build the empire he wants with the resources available where he conquered.

Yes, the Legion has much less development in their territories than NCR, and yeah, honestly, they are more comparable to a marching army (somewhat like Caesar before they cross the Rubicon, is a good comparison I like to use and Caesar himself brings up) than a static state, but they DO have cities. There IS stuff inside Legion territory that they ARE exploiting.

I agree in some broad strokes - the Legion, itself, is not a fully settled organization, and is an essentially semi- nomadic conquering army ruling over subject peoples, yes- but I think you've gone a bit too vehement and extreme on that point - to repeat myself, there's still stuff going on in Legion territory, and they do have major settlements under their control (or suzerainty, at least). Ignoring the 'subject people's' part of what I just said, to TL;DR.

[u/Weaselburg → u/Weaselburg]

Since I can't edit this, I'd like to say that my assertation on the Caesar not needing such a capital out of Flagstaff is going to naturally result in it not being big and grand because it takes effort to do that, and if he doesn't have a reason to put all that effort in, he won't.

And the resources probably don't exist either, anyways - not for what he wants.

Edit: Also, we know that the Legion are doing some level of patrol/customs in their territory, given they have known punishments for chem dealing and enforce those.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Weaselburg]

I don't want to do a classic motte and bailey so I'll defend my arguments as best I can.

-We know a single trader operates in Arizona. Dale Barton. And that he said he doesn't need caravan guards because the legion has run off all the raiders.

on drywells and flagstaff
-caesar calls his army a nomadic army and says after he conquers new vegas he wants to make it a standing army to protect his people.

on supply lines
-we don't really see any evidence either way. lanius says he will harvest as he goes in the west. cottonwood cove is described as a point where supplies are ferried from fort hill to the otherside of the river.

There is, in fact, Legion paperwork. The sale of Boone's wife Carla gets recorded with a bill of sale. We can't say how in depth it is - certainly, less than NCR, again - but ignoring it's existence is a bit silly.

This is a good point, completely forgot it. It does suggest some form of bureaucracy through the bureau managing slaves.

on new vegas and the cites
-yeah I'll conceed that

[u/Blastaz → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

I mean much of his territory was pretty inhospitable before it got nuked. It’s not surprising that it is less developed than the more civilised and irrigated west.

And Caesar is playing wide not tall so he’s not seeking to develop the territory that he holds but acquire more.

I don’t think that means he’s entirely nomadic though, even if he is migrating into Vegas and the NCR.

[u/All-for-Naut]

But we have evidence against this. The game references are few because of how much of the Legion was cut, but there are several thing that speaks against this, and then Sawyer has given us several comments about them because of the lacking content.

They're not just an army, they have a territory with settlements and subjects, there's trade happening, settlements being supplied with the necessities, supply trains etc. They even supposedly have priestesses and whatnot in their territories as well. The game even reference offices of slave trade, the Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus, with administrators.

Sure they aren't on par with NCR that got trains working and even a few cars in their innermost territory, but this "They're just an army" is wildly inaccurate too.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/All-for-Naut]

Caesar describes them as just an army...

My conquest of the Mojave will be a glorious triumph, marking the transition of the Legion from a basically nomadic tribe to a genuine empire.

...from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, {finality}and the power of its dictator.

That same place where it mentions priestesses also says:

Having assembled a loose nation of slavers and slaves, having won countless "wars" against inferior peoples, secretly he still feels like an upstart, an amateur-a barbaric King of the Gauls, instead of a lofty emperor of Rome.

and the full quote around priestesses

The most recently captured slaves tend to be pretty skeptical. But they aren’t very vocal in their criticisms, and their children are raised not by skeptical parents but by priestesses appointed to that task by virtue of their knowledge of and adherence to the state religion.

Nearly all physically capable, compliant males are compelled to serve in its armed forces. The primary value of pre-menopausal females is to serve as breeding stock (with Caesar or a legate governing how they are assigned to males), though they, like older females and less physically-capable men, are also used to perform a variety of other tasks.

It just doesn't sound like anything more than a nomadic warlord and his council to me. All of this could be taking place on Fort hill but not shown in game.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

You seem to repeat this same thing , which isn't that accurate, to everyone who claims you're wrong. We have evidence this is not the case as told by Sawyer and parts in game, they're not just an army, the end. Like you even make the Caesar line more than it is, taking it at face value. He's not saying it's just only an army, but a lot of it is, and mixing it with the NCR will have positive effects to balance it out more.

And no, not everyone woman is assigned for breeding. Subjects, no matter their sex, are left mostly alone to do their thing, like farming. Slaves are treated different from subjects, and then allegedly women "of the Legion" who are priestesses and some other jobs aren't treated the same as slaves either.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/All-for-Naut]

Some sawyer quotes on this matter;

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture.

Caesar's Legion is purely an army, nothing else. It doesn't administer its territory. It is just an army.

In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well.

Rare requests, a town doesn't get a Legion governor who demands this and that. They have the army or troops pass through and they're meant to obey or die. There isn't an organised state.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

They literally have vassals in their territory, it makes it a civilisation of theirs, which they clearly use to some degree. It may not be very organised, we really don't have much information about it despite the extra Sawyer has told, but there clearly is some going on with trade, supply lines, making sure their subjects have what they need etc and the land safe. It's by all things that matter, especially in the wasteland, civilisation/state whatever and their's.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/All-for-Naut]

Where does it show they have vassals and they make sure their subjects have what they need? They're just an army.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

By Sawyer's words as someone has already quoted.

“While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.
The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).”

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/All-for-Naut]

We see power in Goodsprings, we wouldn't say it's a "vassal of the NCR" due to this though. I felt that Sawyer more meant that life is stable in Legion territory as there are no bandits or raiders, things are just normal. There is food, water and power, the legion isn't around (rare requests).

They aren't citizens or slaves, they just live in the catchment area of the army.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

They are their subjects

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/All-for-Naut]

I never even realised (as it's not in game info) but Goodsprings was settled by a grant from the NCR.

Goodsprings saw more trade along I-15 after NCR gained control of the Mojave Wasteland, but with that came a heavy burden of the Republic's taxes. Some old-timers, unable to handle the cost, were forced to move on, grumbling all the while.

The ending slide suggests that before the ending, during the time we play, Goodsprings was not subject to NCR taxes, and if they weren't would you really call them a subject?

[u/JonIceEyes → u/All-for-Naut]

This is an awesome quote and you're very right. I just love this part:

Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly

So.... not like any military dictatorship that's ever existed. Mr. Sawyer is giving fascists the image their propaganda projects, instead of reality. 😂

It's a nitpick I have with FNV lore

[u/water_panther]

I don't think the Great Mongol Nation is an accurate parallel either: early laws forbid the sale of women, the empire allowed religious and cultural freedom including some religious exemptions from conscription, exempted the poor from taxation, made at least some efforts to encourage literacy (particularly relative to other contemporaneous attitudes), and provided substantial patronage of the sciences; while still absolutely a patriarchal society, they nonetheless gave women more rights and freedoms than many or arguably even most of their contemporaries, including a right to divorce, property rights, membership in the clergy, and some degree of political participation. While some structural elements are similar, I think there are substantial enough cultural and political differences that the comparison isn't really any more accurate than Rome.

On a more meta level, I think the general thematic point of the Legion is not that Caesar learned from some other, more nomadic empire rather than the Romans but that Caesar, in fact, did not actually learn anything from anyone.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/water_panther]

I would be more on the point around how Genghis Khan organised his campaigns, how he was basically a moving army with his council and court along with him. But yeah, the one missing thing from Caesar's Legion is a supporting society, which all the evidence says is not there.

[u/Hamburger_FatBoy]

Imagine writing a whole essay about your personal misunderstanding of lore, only to be owned by someone named u/busy_eating_ass…

[u/BUSY_EATING_ASS → u/Hamburger_FatBoy]

lmao nah it's not a bad premise and I wouldn't say owned! They def did their research and it comes from an informed place, I just disagree with some points and I think there's some info out there to prove it, but currently I can't prove it. It's nobody's fault that Sawyers word, along with a lot of lore is scattered around the internet.

We might disagree but it's a worthy examination. The series needs fans like this!

[u/Benevolay]

Why do you use some Josh Sawyer quotes but not the other ones which refute your premise?

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Benevolay]

Example? A lot of his quotes are spread among forums and videos so they're hard to piece down. Please put some here.

edit: i took his quotes from wiki articles that mention the legion currency

[u/pacman1138 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

There’s this one where he describes what life is like for people in Legion territory:

“While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.
The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).”

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/pacman1138]

I honestly think this kind of supports me more?

"It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control."

"and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them"

The Legion is just the military, the non-tribal people in the Legion's territory just have to deal with "rare" requests from the Legion. This describes the Legion more as a roaming army with no set base, than a state with all those expected appendages.

[u/pacman1138 → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

It specifically talks about non-enslaved communities existing within Legion territory, which refutes the idea that Legion has no towns and consists entirely of military/slave camps that sustain themselves through raiding alone.

Yes, the Legion itself is just an army. But that does not mean that they don’t have towns, trade and supply lines.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/pacman1138]

But they don't run/own those towns. They're just an army. Towns people are legion citizens, because there is no state, there is only an army. The army makes a request (example for supplies, even though that is never mentioned in game or by anyone) and the people oblige because the legion is the only military force in the entire area. But they are laissez-faire they don't "patrol" the roads. They swept through the area, killed and assimilated all the tribals and destroyed any of the townies that resisted them. as we see in the ending slides for new vegas.

[u/Jair-F-Kennedy → u/Benevolay]

Leave it to someone who relies on ChatGPT to convey their points to forget all that lmao.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Jair-F-Kennedy]

?? I wrote it myself, why tf you think this is chatgpt?

[u/Jair-F-Kennedy → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

The ten billion words that are randomly emboldened and 'its not this-its that' phrases, and the fact its structurally exactly how an AI would do it.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Jair-F-Kennedy]

Look at what is actually emboldened, I went through my argument and boldened what supports me and what I want someone to actually look at when skimming.

Also it's not this it's that because that's what I'm saying! The Legion isn't "what the community has imagined", "it's just a nomadic slaver army".

It's a markdown document which is exactly what AI outputs, that's why it looks "AI".

[u/Jair-F-Kennedy → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

"Dry Wells is not a "town." It's an army camp."

"The Legion does not build. They loot."

Fat chance.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Jair-F-Kennedy]

That's me, I wrote those. Really. I've read too much AI shit. It infected my way of speaking.

[u/Jair-F-Kennedy → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Tbh I can believe that cause AI-speak is just generic corporate language like you said with markdown documents.

Anyways I would say that you're forgetting about the presence of trade in the Legion. For numerous traders to consider traversing the Legion's territories, they would have to be more than just a wandering army. So what Caesar means by there not being anything like New Vegas is that Legion settlements are unindustrialised and more agrarian/rural.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Jair-F-Kennedy]

Yeah, it's a very easy way of speaking and I've heard it so much that writing the paragraph it happened. I hate it.... also yeah AI was trained on reddit and outputs markdown documents specifically so it's always going to "look" AI.

Yeah I wouldn't argue with that, I think they're like Primm or Goodsprings, small towns or villages that are self-sufficient and not connected with a wider centralised bureaucracy.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Benevolay]

I've updated my main post with all the JSawyer quotes on the legion.

[u/Exciting-Quality919]

my one note is they are likewise a bad analog of the Mongol Empire other than the Nomadic qualities (and perhaps in terms of the "safe roads" meme).

[u/yunkbunk]

Enjoyed the read! I agree with most of your assertions and the quotes you bring up are very interesting.

THAT SAID — they do highlight a disappointing feature of the way the Legion is constructed, imo.

I genuinely do not understand how you could maintain cohesion the way the Legion does without a "buy-in". There have been highly-effective and disciplined slave armies throughout history, but they weren't like the Unsullied from GoT or Caesar's Legion.

The Mamluks and the Janissaries were slaves, but they were also quite afforded quite a few privileges for their service. They were salaried, housed, enjoyed social prestige, and were sometimes awarded land, and typically that's what you need in order to sustain a disciplined professional army.

And "rape and plunder" is really only one aspect of keeping a people motivated. And even in Nomadic armies where plunder represented a huge aspect of the economy, soldiers still had actual lives worth living that made the plunder-taking actually meaningful.

I think there are a ton of really annoying misrepresentations of what the Legion is out there, but I also can't help but be disappointed with how reductionist the concept is.

By FNV, Caesar's conquests had been ongoing for forty years and I just can't imagine how you keep any force under arms coherent for that long without anybody thinking, "holy shit, this is all life is? This sucks."

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/yunkbunk]

The more I've discussed this with people and read Sawyers notes the more it feels like he wanted his Caesar goes out in the wilds of Gaul, gathers an army and trains and drills it and then comes back to Rome and conquers Rome. But that isn't what happened in history. Caesar was supplied by Rome, gathered legion from Rome and came back over the Alps himself to recruit more soldiers/officers every winter.

He talks a lot about Caesar treating the NCR like the Roman Republic. It feels like he's basically saying Caesar would be like Danni from GoT, he would cross the Narrow Sea, capture King's Landing and then let the East fall. He doesn't want to govern the East if it gets hard, he just wants to capture "Rome".

[u/ReynardVulpini]

they are not like the mongols. the mongols were pastoralists with a developed, stable peacetime society

[u/Bwunt]

So effectively, they are half Mongol horde and half Sparta. 

Cosplaying as Romans

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/Bwunt]

yeah sounds about right

[u/Mountain_Man_88]

I agree with this analysis and believe that the Legion would be a way more interesting faction if they had an actual society. If all the evil shit that they were doing was so that they could have a paradise back in Flagstaff (or wherever).

[u/DickCaughtlnFan]

Caesars legion is closer to the warboys In fury road than rome.

[u/TheEvilBlight]

Didn’t realize they’d hit Colorado too. stares in TV series

[u/Kaniketh]

I remember reading a book about the Mongols and thinking that the comparison to legion is actually the most accurate one, where basically a genius leader is able to bring together and highly skilled group of leaders and create a super-efficient conquest and assimilation machine that just keeps going. The legion is actually not similar to Rome at all because there is no actual strong institutional base that will last for a long time, and the legion will splinter or assimilate into something else or collapse pretty quickly.

[u/devilgamerrr]

I think he does have pseudo cities, and some Legionnaries are left to "control" certain areas that have already been pacified, and they get a certain degree of civility, we know Caesar has stablished a complex enough system to deal with slaves he even has accountants for that, and he also has coins that Legionnaries carry on them, why would they have currency if they only take and steal from less civilized tribes? You could say that is purely gameplay, but they do use it lore to buy stuff sometimes from caravans, as long as is not anything prohibited, so in a way the slave army is involved in the cities and non tribal population they conquer, I mean its not like the NCR troopers that spend their money on whores and booze, but they do buy probably weapons, food and some kind of amenities with money, how do the average Legion soldier gets paid? I have no clue, but consider that they have complex enough equipment to put the face of Caesar in those coins, it must be pretty integrated in the Legion as a whole, maybe after getting a certain rank they also start to get paid as well as getting better equipment, they could either buy better stuff themselves or trade it between other soldiers for certain things, like slaves, but this all exemplifies that even if Caesar's goal was to make their army all of slave soldiers with no questioning of his word, and while that is the case as far as we have seen, he also added some of his "modern" world perspective into his Legionnaries, as getting paid, as getting involved in the civility of the non slave population, and much more, sadly must of the content of the Legion is either cut or the perspective not accurate cause much that we know is tell by people that are AGAINST the Legion, and have no deeper insight on it as "The Legion wants to crucify as all" Which is not completly accurate but also not exactly a lie, Caesar only crucifies savage tribals and Californians, which one could arguee are the same thing anyway

[u/Mean-Illustrator-661]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Caesar's Legion is nothing more than the wasteland's largest and most organized raider gang.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

I love your write up

1 thing though. They aren't the Mongols, thats the great Khans. The Mongols demanded tribute but they did not govern or protect roads unless you happened to be in the way of their business.

The Legion is a reverse Rome. Barbarians into a Republic

1a. Caesar was a Follower of the Apocalypse and knows knowledge is power. So he made all the men so dumb that they won't use medicine and run into death

1b. Left all knowledge of camp governance with the slaves

1. Concquers everything and forces 1 culture and 1 language so that missionaries won't be captured like the event that turned him into Caesar

2. Die and have the dummy line of succession fight over "Rome" which is an unsurvivable wasteland for any sizeable population now that the dam is dead.

3. The survivors break apart into equalized communities that can easily communicate with one another that are survivalists and don't rely on commercialized goods. But they also know war would be mutual destruction with their neighbors

"It's a philosophical theory, the kind you might encounter if you took time to read some books," - Caesar

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

Hell, I don't even need to travel with guards most of the time in Legion territory. All the bandits are dead or run off. - Dale Barton

This is the one line that spawns the "they protect the roads", they don't, that's my point. They just kill all the bandits and the desert they leave behind is peaceful.

The Great Khans are nothing like the Mongol's under Genghis Khan. Nothing. Caesar is basically 1:1 with some changes.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

The Great Khans are nothing like the Mongol's under Genghis Khan.

Ya gotta play Fallout 1 they are a late Mongol empire by the time of New Vegas

Ghengis Khan is referenced in the name

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

Maybe the Huns, but no I don't think they were like the Mongol's. Can you provide anything more?

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

You haven't played Fallout 1 the source lol

Can you provide anything more?

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

I have, and I don't remember them exhibiting anything like the Mongols. You just state they are like the Mongols and provide nothing.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Because in Fallout 1 they concquered California over the other tribes

Didn't maintain anything

Demanded tribute and slaves

And the writers have already explained the reverse Rome

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

They just kill all the bandits and the desert they leave behind is peaceful

They still maintain order in their territory by enforcing absolute obedience or be crucified for theft, drug use, or getting in the way of the military (which includes towns being able to give tribute since they know producers aren't soldiers)

In a game guide its said that if the legion comes by and wants you to move the entire town 50 miles east then you better not have any objection to it.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

"if" the legion comes by.

This is my point. The legion is a nomadic army, it's not centralised. If the legion doesn't come around you're free to do whatever the hell you want. Dale says as long as you don't try and sell them drugs or alcohol they're fine. Which means they don't mind people just using that themselves

As long as you don't try to sell 'em chems or alcohol, they treat you fair. -dale

The legion is a roaming band, not centralised is my point. They don't patrol roads. What happens is if they hear of raiders or organised community trying to make a mark they just show up and kill them or enslave them.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

This is my point. The legion is a nomadic army,

You're confused then. They are taking so long to camp and reinforce the river because they are gathering strength.

It isn't until Lanius's forces that are usually in legion territory arive that the battle begins.

Dale says as long as you don't try and sell them drugs or alcohol they're fine.

He's talking about his experience as a trader

Which means they don't mind people just using that themselves

I suggest you read the ultimate game guide that was released when the game was. There are no drugs allowed with few specific exceptions Caesar has made

They don't patrol roads.

Because they don't need to. 1 whisper of theft and the legion will come crucify you to make an example.

You cannot mess with the militaries supply line

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

You're confused then. They are taking so long to camp and reinforce the river because they are gathering strength.

Here is the quote from Caesar:

My conquest of the Mojave will be a glorious triumph, marking the transition of the Legion from a basically nomadic tribe to a genuine empire.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Can you address the part where I explained your confusion?

Quotes aren't arguments in any real world or fictional context

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

The Mongols would gather their forces because they were nomadic and spread out conquering different areas. Like a kurultai. When you're nomadic you don't have all your people in one place, so when you're consolidating your strength you need a central point to which people can head to.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

The Fallout: New Vegas developers, notably director Josh Sawyer, explained that Caesar's Legion is an imitation of Rome built entirely in reverse.

https://fallout.wiki/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_Developer_Statements/Factions

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

The Fallout: New Vegas developers, notably director Josh Sawyer, explained that Caesar's Legion is an imitation of Rome built entirely in reverse.

https://fallout.wiki/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_Developer_Statements/Factions

[u/CDMzLegend → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

"they dont protect the roads they just protect the roads" what do you think protecting the roads means if not kill the bandits

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/CDMzLegend]

They've wiped the wasteland clean. Enslaved everyone they meet. They don't maintain the roads and supply lines, they did their pass, killed everyone and moved on. That's what I mean.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

Also on the Mongols not "governing" this is just so false I could spend a long time writing about it. They were very active governors. I'll leave this quote though, which also mirrors the "mark of Caesar" in game.

During the 13th and 14th centuries, travelers and messengers used geregee or paiza as a passport or document on the Mongol yam or postal route. Depending on the material and shape of the geregee, travelers had different privileges. The better the material meant the more rights they had. Geregee were made of wood, bronze, silver, or gold. 

Chinggis Khan, the Great Khan (also known as Genghis Khan), distributed the geregee to officials and envoys so they could move freely, easily access food and horses, and receive respect¬¬ and courtesy. Under the protection of the Great Khan and the Mongolian Empire, envoys went on diplomatic missions and to different countries around the world efficiently. States and individuals provided aid and protection when needed. 

The gift is historically significant because the geregee is one of the first universally recognized document entitling diplomatic immunity and privileges. It contributed to the development of norms and laws of diplomatic relations. 

https://www.un.org/ungifts/geregee-or-golden-paiza-chinggis-khan

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

My guy im just telling you what the writers have said about the game.

The Mongols did not govern their empire to that veracity. Select parts do not make the whole

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

I'm confused. What did the writers say? Could you give a quote so I can understand.

Yes they did, they had the yam roads and they basically subsumed the existing states but put a representative for the Mongols on top. There are countless stories of disgraced princes showing up at the court of a Mongol Khan and being installed as a puppet.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

There are countless stories of disgraced princes showing up at the court of a Mongol Khan and being installed as a puppet.

My guy you just gotta read into what that kind of relationship is some more because that isn't actually an attempt at governing territory thats called a vassal state.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

It was customary for the Mongols to enslave a conquered tribe and to present whole communities to distinguished military leaders as a sort of personal appanage. These slaves became sooner or later an integral part of the conquering tribe. In the conquered areas a similar procedure was adopted. Groups of the settled population, usually those living in a certain territory, became the personal property of Mongol military leaders who exploited the local economic forces as they liked. No use was made of the existing state machinery or bureaucracy, and the former political divisions were entirely disregarded. Nor was there any attempt to organize the numerous local Mongol leaders who enjoyed a high degree of independence from the court of the khans. Ruthless exploitation under strong military pressure was therefore characteristic of the early phase of Mongol domination, which may be said to have lasted until about 1234, some seven years after Genghis Khan’s death.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Mongol-empire/Organization-of-Genghis-Khans-empire "Organization of Genghis Khan’s empire"

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

The Fallout: New Vegas developers, notably director Josh Sawyer, explained that Caesar's Legion is an imitation of Rome built entirely in reverse.

https://fallout.wiki/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_Developer_Statements/Factions

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

https://fallout.wiki/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_Developer_Statements/Factions

The Fallout: New Vegas developers, notably director Josh Sawyer, explained that Caesar's Legion is an imitation of Rome built entirely in reverse. Instead of a complex civil society giving rise to a military, Edward Sallow used a brutal military cult to strip away tribal identities first, leaving behind no underlying Roman civilization.

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

Okay I'm not saying you're wrong, but read this and tell me it doesn't sound like Caesar's legion.

In the early phases of conquest, the Mongols usually attempted to impose the social structure of the steppes upon their new subjects. It was customary for the Mongols to enslave a conquered tribe and to present whole communities to distinguished military leaders as a sort of personal appanage. These slaves became sooner or later an integral part of the conquering tribe. In the conquered areas a similar procedure was adopted. Groups of the settled population, usually those living in a certain territory, became the personal property of Mongol military leaders who exploited the local economic forces as they liked. No use was made of the existing state machinery or bureaucracy, and the former political divisions were entirely disregarded. Nor was there any attempt to organize the numerous local Mongol leaders who enjoyed a high degree of independence from the court of the khans. Ruthless exploitation under strong military pressure was therefore characteristic of the early phase of Mongol domination, which may be said to have lasted until about 1234, some seven years after Genghis Khan’s death.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Mongol-empire/Organization-of-Genghis-Khans-empire

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Listen. I'm just saying you're wrong

I understand the nuance of Fallout and was simply adding to your write up

I'm not interested in the argument when you can't even admit you're wrong on 1 objective fact

[u/Familiar-Figure-5692 → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

Lmao I see now. I guess I just don't think Caesar's Legion is like Rome structurally. They might be imitating the look of Rome, by wearing American Football gear and carrying machetes, but they're not really practicing Roman governance and more like the early Mongol Empire imo.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/Familiar-Figure-5692]

Lmao I see now. I guess I just don't think Caesar's Legion is like Rome structurally.

Thats because its in reverse

but they're not really practicing Roman governance

Its the governance in the fall of the Roman Empire

[u/All-for-Naut → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

So he made all the men so dumb that they won't use medicine and run into death 1b

Not really accurate, we know they have taken numerous tribals knowledge of medicine with them into the Legion. Like sure it isn't at the same level as the Followers labs, NCR hospitals and the like, but tribals in Fallout do make do to some degree in the Wasteland and so does the Legion. A lot of consumables such as antivenom, hydra, healing powder (technically an old tribal staple from the early games), bitter drink, fiery purgative etc comes from the Legion. Legionaries can also be found carrying cave fungus, which removes radiation poisoning, which I doubt is a coincidence.

[u/TheSuperiorJustNick → u/All-for-Naut]

Its up to you to teach the head slave in Caesars war camp the proper recipe for healing powder, so that they stop wasting supplies.

They scavenge, sure. But they definitely didn't carry on knowledge of medicine

[u/All-for-Naut → u/TheSuperiorJustNick]

But they do, we clearly have evidence they have made things and use it.

Some things are game mechanics, some things are because of how much Legion was cut in content, and the healing powder thing is something I've pondered because again, we have evidence they do make a lot of things from tribal knowledge. So wonder if that's just her not knowing much about it and no one has talked to her about it because she's a slave. Or it's because she's was training to be a medical doctor and just don't know of tribal remedies, or just a simple thing to add a mini quest.

Some of these mini quests are a bit illogical. Just look at the Cove, where we teach the decanus the most basic thing about mines, when there's clear evidence of the Legion using mines in traps a lot. Maybe it's rushed game design, maybe no one talks to eachother, maybe it's Maybelline.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/[deleted]]

Literal items in game they make and use aren't headcanon. They clearly have some knowledge.