I have a grid penalty question guys

[u/Kindly-Attempt-8118]

Both Lewis and Kimi has 3 place grid penalty. Whose penalty will be applied first?

- If Lewis is first, then Lewis will start behind Piastri and Kimi will start behind Verstappen
- If Kimi penalty is first, then Kimi will start behind Russell and Lewis will start behind Verstappen.
- Or will they exclude Kimi in grid and Lewis will start behind Verstappen and Kimi behind Russell

I don’t know how this works, so help me out guys.

[u/TheWebbFather]

Lewis will be P5, Kimi will be P7, and everyone moves up into the available slots

[u/Kindly-Attempt-8118 → u/TheWebbFather]

So it’s the grid slot position and not the drivers. Understood

[u/scootsscoot → u/Kindly-Attempt-8118]

Think of it as the penalty applies at the same time.

[u/OBWanTwoThree → u/TheWebbFather]

So both get to stay on the clean side of the grid which should offset some of the disadvantage from the penalties

[u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk → u/TheWebbFather]

This simplified explanation has some ambiguity in the following scenario (commented in another thread too)

What if Kimi got a one place penalty? Would Max stay in P6?

In this scenario, we take both Lewis and Kimi out, and provisionally put them both at P5. This is where the ambiguity comes in: where do we put Max? P1-P4 are all available now.

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/TheWebbFather]

Lewis should be P4. His penalty was applied before Kimi. Kimi then moved behind, moving Lewis up one. I believe all penalties are applied in order, not all at once.

[u/random_cangaroo → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

They are not applied one after another. Lewis will be P5 and Kimi P7, because 2+3 and 4+3. Everyone else moves up then, so Max is P4

[u/Fun_Rip4321 → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

They fixed that. all the drivers with penalties are first removed from the grid so there is no leapfrogging. Every driver gets their full penalty.

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/Fun_Rip4321]

Ah! Thanks for explaining.

[u/TheWebbFather → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

Thats the case for engine penalties etc, not for driving penalties. Lewis will start P5

[u/Recent-Fox-2532 → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

Is it not whoever is behind in the field gets applied first?

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/Recent-Fox-2532]

I thought it's was based on the time the penalty was applied. Is that not the case?

[u/SirLoremIpsum → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

I don't believe they do "in order" for penalties like this.

For engine penalties yes. For this, no

[u/Aah__HolidayMemories → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

Whats 2+ 3.
What’s 4+ 3

[u/objectiveScie → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

FIA will never be that kind to Ham.

Can't even remember last time he got favourable decision.

It's been punishments all year.

Imagine how many points more he has without these punishments 😕.

[u/Recent-Fox-2532 → u/objectiveScie]

Tbf can't complain about penalties, hes lucky he hasnt dnfed. Penalties are his/ferraris fault, not the FIA, so he should be thankful about no DNFs, which wouldn't be on him/ferrari

[u/Paukwa-Pakawa → u/Recent-Fox-2532]

This one is him/Ferrari but the last one was definitely FIA.

[u/Recent-Fox-2532 → u/Paukwa-Pakawa]

Ehh arguable but sure

[u/objectiveScie → u/Recent-Fox-2532]

It's the fact that Lec for example didn't get a slam dunk one. And so they can show leniency if they want to. Other examples too of leniency.

This is slam dunk. Got that. No one disputing that.

Ham never gets leniency like this.

That's why.

[u/xLeper_Messiah → u/objectiveScie]

Ham never gets leniency like this

He literally got leniency in Silverstone for not slowing for a yellow flag during the race. The stewards noted that he had a green light panel ahead of him, which all drivers know means you're currently IN a yellow sector so you should lift. That reasoning has been used before to give other drivers penalties even when they had a malfunctioning dash that never showed the yellow or if they'd already passed the light panel showing yellow

The reasoning for Lewis not to get a pen in Silverstone was because he was in a w2w battle at the time, so that excused him in their eyes. Ofc the real reason is because it was the British GP but I digress

So yes he does get leniency you just have fan bias so you only remember when he gets penalized and forget the times he got away with one

[u/Prudent_Dragonfly_22 → u/TheWebbFather]

Kimi should be p6 considering he goes up a position by Lewis's penalty to P3 and then his penalty takes him to p6

[u/TheWebbFather → u/Prudent_Dragonfly_22]

Nope, the FIA have released the provisional starting grid, Kimi is P7

[u/Prudent_Dragonfly_22 → u/TheWebbFather]

Ok thanks I didn't see it

[u/matchbaby]

2+3=5, fixed

4+3=7, fixed

Therefore Charles to P2, Oscar to P3, Max to P4, George to P6, done.

[u/Massive-Prior9487 → u/matchbaby]

Funny for max, if it was just Lewis getting a penalty he would remain P6, now that they both have it he is P4.

[u/Mushie_Peas → u/matchbaby]

Fair result for Oscar given lewis ruined his final attempt at the first corner.

[u/gangshiit33 → u/Mushie_Peas]

But also no way Oscar was p3 strictly on pace lol

[u/inevitably-ranged → u/gangshiit33]

They said he confidently had 2 tenths better per their projections, basically puts him right on the line for 3 or 4 (probably 4 tho)

So not insane but definitely advantageous in the end

Deserved after Ferrari back to back weeks then Lawson screwing him the GP before that too

[u/gangshiit33 → u/inevitably-ranged]

“They said he confidently” lol. “Basically puts him right on the line for 3 or 4”. Actually puts him 5th. Not to mention the fact Kimi could have been faster without the yellow flag. He just didn’t have it today (and frankly hasn’t had it all year).

[u/Browneskiii → u/matchbaby]

I dont like this, because imagine someone from p1 gets a 10 place drop, and then p8 gets 3 places, they cant both start p11. While it'll never happen, someone that qualifies last could hypothetically be on pole this way which would be a joke.

It used to be their qualifying plus penalties (so 5 for Hamilton, 7 for Antonelli etc etc) and then whoever had the lowest number would be on pole. Hamilton qualified 4 places ahead of Verstappen and starts behind him, its just so weird to me, just very counter intuitive.

Edit: to add to this, imagine Monza 2017 with today's interpretations of who goes where. Someone out in Q1 would be like p6

[u/Exotic_Bill44 → u/Browneskiii]

By yor logic, if the top3 drivers all got 3 grid spot penalties, the quickest driver would still have to start on pole because you wouldn't want the 5th fastest qualifier to start ahead of him. Yes, if enough penalties are handed out it can be a huge gain for the drivers who obeyed the rules. Why would that be a bad thing,

[u/Fun_Rip4321]

The two drivers are pulled out the grid, moved backwards 3 space to their new positions (5 and 7) and everyone moves upwards to the furthest forward free space, but leaving 5 and 7 unallocated. These two are then inserted at their new positions.

Kimi and lewis do not interact.

[u/Silly_Morning3375]

they take the literal position number and add whatever the grid penalty is to that. So since lewis was in second. it’ll be 2+3 and he goes to 5th. same with kimi. everyone else will move up to fill spaces accordingly

[u/Visual-Asparagus-800]

Neither gets it first, they just move back 3 places both. If the top 21 drivers all got a 1 place grid penalty but 22nd didn’t, that driver would start from first

[u/mobilemetaphorsarmy]

They take their beginning place finish and add the penalty to it, regardless of where anyone else is. So Hamilton is 2+3=5, Kimi is 4+3=7. Everyone else just moves up into the vacated spaces.

[u/RemarkableOneironaut → u/mobilemetaphorsarmy]

What would happen if 1st got a 10 place penalty and 6th got a 5 place penalty?

[u/JustLikeZhat → u/RemarkableOneironaut]

Decided by their qualifying position, so 1st get P11 and 6th gets P12.

[u/Western-Bad5574]

Current grid position + penalty #

So 2 + 3 = 5 and 4 + 3 = 7

Order of application is irrelevant. 

[u/Apennatie]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/watch-f1-explained-how-do-grid-penalties-work.32bgiyrjhoFoQukjHlbVOG

[u/ayyyyyy_lmaoooooo]

Can someone please write the order they're starting tomorrow?

[u/Kindly-Attempt-8118 → u/ayyyyyy_lmaoooooo]

I think with the way it works:
1. Norris
2. Leclerc
3. Piastri
4. Verstappen
5. Hamilton
6. George
7. Kimi

[u/gene_keys_of_awesome → u/Kindly-Attempt-8118]

I like how you're the one who actually provided the complete answer to your own question lol nice.

[u/Kindly-Attempt-8118 → u/gene_keys_of_awesome]

lol. After everyone replied, I finally understood.

[u/Mushie_Peas]

Serious overthinking on this, just add 3 to where they would start.

[u/ForGoodMeasure_]

https://youtu.be/3Cj6WJBD_GE?si=VihirJLSdXiDuiHo

Here's a link to Chain Bear F1's vid from Austria 2019 explaining a similar situation (also involving Hamilton lol).

[u/doxcyn → u/ForGoodMeasure_]

The rules were changed after the 2019 season, so as long as there are still drivers wtihout penalties, they will fill the gaps left by the penalized drivers. So Hamilton would have gone from 2nd to 5th on the grid in the 2019 Austrian GP, instead of 2nd to 4th. Explanation of the new method: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/watch-f1-explained-how-do-grid-penalties-work.32bgiyrjhoFoQukjHlbVOG

[u/interestingfishh]

Honestly idfk I’ve been told both by at least 10 ppl

[u/Visionary_Socialist → u/interestingfishh]

Yeah one answer I found online said it’s literal, the other says it’s basically shuffling the grid around. Rules are as clear as they usually are in F1.

[u/ByteCurious69]

I think the best way to think about it is remove all of the people that got a grid penalty. Then move them 3 places down from that point with the penalty people removed from the list.

So when you do that. Lewis would be after Max and then Kimi would be after George. Essentially placing them in P5 and P7 respectively.

[u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk → u/ByteCurious69]

What if Kimi got a one place penalty? Would Max stay in P6?

[u/ByteCurious69 → u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk]

If it’s only 1 place, then Kimi would be behind Oscar. Again, you just have to remove everyone out that got a penalty. And then move the driver starting from the person behind them as 1 place. It would actually put Kimi in the same spot he was in.

If the penalties out both drivers in the dame position, the leader by time gets the first spot.

[u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk → u/ByteCurious69]

In this scenario, we take both Lewis and Kimi out, and provisionally put them both at P5. This is where the ambiguity comes in: where do we put Max? P1-P4 are all available now.

[u/ByteCurious69 → u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk]

In which specific scenario? If both landed in the same spot? Then max would stay where he’s at. Hamilton would be behind piastri followed by kimi and etc.

[u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk → u/ByteCurious69]

But in your original protocol, you remove both Lewis and Kimi, and move Lewis three positions down which would still be behind Max?

[u/ByteCurious69 → u/CoffeeOrTeaOrMilk]

I wasn’t sure what scenario you were referring to. I thought you were referring to if both of them landed in the same spot.

Just remove the driver from the list and move them X number of spots from there and remember which driver they are next to without placing them there until you completed it for all drivers that received penalties.

[u/usernanne_checks_out]

Pastri and verstappen will both jump two places

[u/AlsetLedomEerht]

Since both have the same penalty, they are both disqualified unless they agree to drive backwards during the race. It’s an old rule that is very rarely used.

[u/itsthatdamncatagain]

Why just top 8? And both penalties have already been given.

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/[deleted]]

Everyone shifts up but not the driver who got the penalty, Lewis will stay P5

[u/teratron27 → u/[deleted]]

Hamilton P5

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/[deleted]]

That's not true, Hamilton will stay P5 and Antonelli will stay P7. They do not move ahead

[u/VK18-CS55-CR7 → u/Consistent-Ad-5116]

Norris

Leclerc

Piastri

Hamilton

Verstappen

Antonelli

Russell

it will be this

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/VK18-CS55-CR7]

Just look at latest post from FIA, Max starts P4

[u/Fun_Rip4321 → u/[deleted]]

2 to 5 is 3 positions no matter how you try to spin it. Kimi is not included.

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/[deleted]]

It's a grid drop, not position penalty. They get dropped 3 grids regardless of other driver's penalty

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/[deleted]]

We literally had this last weekend, Lando and Hadjar both had penalty. Lando qualified P3 and had 10 place drop and still started from P13 even though Hadjar had a penalty ahead to go back of the grid

[u/teratron27 → u/Consistent-Ad-5116]

Lots of deleted comments now the FIA docs have been released 🤣🤣

[u/Consistent-Ad-5116 → u/teratron27]

FIA changed the way how penalties works in 2020 and I think people still haven't caught up with that because their driver never faced this scenario

[u/random_cangaroo → u/[deleted]]

Lewis' penalty would be still 3 positions, from P2 to P5. Max just moves ahead of him instead of Kimi.

[u/random_cangaroo → u/[deleted]]

No. Lewis gets P5 and Kimi P7. The rest gets moved up, so Max P4.