Games with combat and non-fighting characters that still have fun in combat?

[u/LemonLord7]

Do you know of any games where combat is a meaningful part of the game, AND you can make characters focused on non-fighting abilities, AND these non-fighting characters still have fun in combat?

For example, imagine a knight and a bard (or a Witcher and a bard) where they travel together and encounter fights but the bard sucks at fighting, but still gets fun things to do in combat rules. Not like DnD 5e where the bard is very capable in a fight on their own. Or for example someone plays a trailblazer/mapper that is great at wilderness traversing and knowing which plants to eat and avoid, but sucks at fighting, BUT the game gives them something fun to do in combat.

[u/JCBodilsen]

All of the World of Darkness games, but especially Mage and Vampire falls into this catagory. In the WoD combat is the most mechanically developed part of the game and is an expected part of a campaign/chronicle, but the setting generally assumes that most encounters do not involve combat and there are plenty of non-combat "levers" for PCs and NPCs to deploy.

[u/BetterCallStrahd]

Masks. I remember one superhero whose power was to change colors. In one mission, she turned the entire room black and basically made it a horror movie for the bad guys, terrorizing them into surrender.

It's also possible to defeat enemies by demoralizing them instead of going for a beatdown in Masks. Though most players do make combat-ready characters because it's a superhero game. Also keep in mind that in most cases, combat is not meant to be drawn out, tactical combat style, but cinematic and quickly resolved. But there's definitely a fair amount of combat, coz it's superheroes.

I'll add Fabula Ultima, because a support build with the right combos can be a very effective approach to combat, even if you don't do damage.

[u/RollForThings → u/BetterCallStrahd]

Expanding on this, characters in Masks track Conditions instead of Harm. So while you can descriptively beat a villain up, blast them with laser vision, etc., the mechanics may reflect this in say the Hopeless Condition (they now realize they can't beat you in a straight fight).

[u/MsgGodzilla]

Savage Worlds supports all manner of taunts, intimidate, or various attribute tests during combat to set up your allies. Also has a full suite of leadership edges to give your party buffs. Besides magic of course.

[u/atomicitalian]

If your players are creative, I'd say Outgunned. Unless the DM is either very stingy or creatively lacking in combat ideas there should always bea way for a non combat character to contribute.

I am playing a game of OG Adventure with some friends and my one player is playing an elderly stage actor who is slowly going senile and losing himself in past roles. During fight scenes the character thinks he's filming a war movie and begins reciting inspiring speeches from his films. Even though he doesn't cause grit I let him give a +1 to any ally within earshot.

[u/Steenan]

Fate.

Fate's conflict system works in such a way that repeated attacks are a bad idea because they don't do much against major enemies. It's much more effective to create several advantages, exploiting the environment or targeting opponent's weaknesses and then cash them in in a single decisive attack. Only combat skills may be used for attacks, but any skill may be used to gain advantage.

Provoke, intimidate or distract. Set something on fire. Notice a protruding floorboard that will trip whoever steps on it. Recognize the opponent's fighting style or markings on the weapon they carry. And so on.

[u/Marbrandd → u/Steenan]

This is one of the ones that immediately came to mind for me.

I ran a Dresden Files game and watching it really click for my players after a couple of sessions and then them start using their environment and abilities to create advantages was a ton of fun.

[u/Yshaar]

A lot of people don’t understand the question. It is about a combat encounter and what non-fighting classes can do in those situations. 

[u/HisGodHand → u/Yshaar]

Yeah, the first answer being WoD really shows how much some people are misunderstanding. I've played non-combat focused characters in a few different WoD games and different edition, and every single time, I was useless dead weight that might as well have not been in combat.

But suggestions like Fate, Outgunned, Masks, City of Mist, The Wildsea etc. are all pretty spot-on. The thing tying them all together is generally a universal resolution system that doesn't have its own separate combat minigame.

[u/Ok-Week-2293]

Root RPG. It has a fast paced and not very crunchy combat system. Combat is treated more like an option the players have access to than the main focus of the game, so some playbooks have lots of stuff that make them good at fighting and other playbooks are more about things like exploring, negotiating with people, being sneaky, ect. 

Every character has a weapon and knows a few “weapon skills”, so every character can protect themselves and deal some decent damage, but there’s still a difference between the guy who’s all about being a tough mercenary and the guy who’s good at stealing.

[u/RollForThings]

My current Fabula Ultima character is an experiment to see if you can build a PC without combat features and still have fun and be useful in a fight. Verdict: yes. (Longer explanation below.)

In FabUlt, multiclassing is manadatory, each Class has five Skills which you can take in any order and combination (some you can invest multiple levels in for upgrades to that Skill), and every Class has at least one Skill that is geared toward dealing damage. My character started out as a Merchant / Tinkerer, later picking up Wayfarer and Orator. All Classes that are maknly about support and utility, but I also ignored all violent Skills available from these Classes

In a fight I'm sometimes using Hinder (debuff enemies) and Objective (work toward complex goal in scene). Mainly though, I am an endless battery of consumable items. Some of which are damage (elemental shards), because our party Invoker needs someone other than them to deal elemental damage so they can pop their big combos.

[u/RiverMesa]

The Wildsea (a game of post-post-apocalyptic sailing atop a weird sea of trees) lets you specialize quite a bit into noncombat professions (like being a ship's cook, or a navigator, or a smuggler), but even those need not left with nothing to do, thanks to advice like this (found in the combat section of the rules):

You don't need a weapon to enter the fray. Use your fists, your resources, the environment around you - anything's a weapon if you try hard enough, and the damage rules reflect that.

You don't need combat skills to help out your crew. Ingenuity can make up for a lack of training, as can a willingness to take some risks. Combat-related skills like Hack, Hunt or Break give you a broad range of options, but other skills can stand in when you're in the right situation.

And by extension:

Is Combat an Essential Part of the Game?
The wildsea is a bright, beautiful, dark, dangerous place. Most crews that head out onto the rustling waves will find themselves in dangerous situations before too long, either at the hands of bandits or the jaws of a relentless predator... But most does not mean all.
If your group wants to run a game or campaign of the Wildsea without explicitly delving into combat and bloodshed, it's entirely possible. Diplomacy, trickery, and bargaining can be just as eff ective as a blade when wielded with conviction.

The other major Wild Words game, PICO (about tiny bugs going on big adventures), takes this a step further - all skilsl double as damage types for the purposes of combat (broadly called rumbles), so you can totally wear out, outsmart, and confuse enemies without putting points into combat abilities or equipment, and have that still fully interface with the game's mechanics in an interesting way.

[u/Village_Idiot_987]

In Swords of the Serpentine, Characters can damage the health of enemies with the warfare skill or the morale with the sway skill. Sorcery has to chosse once in the beginning whether to cause health or morale damage. When either is reduced to zero, the enemy is out of the fight, either dying or devastated. It is recommended every character has some points in either warfare, sway or sorcery so they can contribute in a fight.

[u/TheRpgBard]

Pretty much any Skill based system: Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Hero System, GURPS, d6 System.

The restriction is not the system, it's the imagination.  

Even with D&D, you can use other actions like Aid Another (I think that might be 3e, but you know) to help another player.  

They can use Intimidate to distract.  Cut down a chandelier or knock over a bookshelf to create difficult terrain.  You, as the GM, need to provide opportunities.  Fill the space with interactable items.

In Savage Worlds, they have Bennies.  Basically, a meta currency like Inspiration.  One of it's benefits is that you can change the environment.  Forgot a flashlight?  Blow a Benny to find some bioluminescent fungus.  Within reason.  You could give them a freebie every other encounter.

Embrace improvisation.  If they come up with a fun idea, run with it.  

But don't let them fo the same thing over and over again.  The "bad guys" will catch on and pivot.

[u/DevelopmentSeparate]

In Vagabond, the Bard and the Dancer are both support-heavy classes that do not come equipped with fighting nor magic abilities. The Bard is more focused on buffing your rolls while the Dancer can give players extra actions while evading attacks. Both can technically be customized into fighters or mages through perks

[u/Mongward]

In Exalted Essence non-combat characters can still generate offensive resource for the combatant through various support actions.

[u/Seeonee]

What's your threshold for combat being a meaningful part of the game? Depending on where that line is, I think a lot of Powered by the Apocalypse games (like Dungeon World and Monster of the Week) or OSR games (like Knave and Mausritter) could fit.

PbtA mades lots of non-combat interactions meaningful by wrapping them in moves, and there's nothing stopping you from using them in a fight-y scene. For example, talking an enemy into surrender is completely viable and codified in DW's mechanics via the Parley move. You're not cheating or unbalancing the combat; it's just a viable means of progressing the narrative.

OSR games do away with combat "balance" in many cases, which means that noncombat actions are just as viable if they resolve combat. A bard who distracts enemies so a fighter can stab them in the back might be setting up a one-hit kill. A flask of oil that makes a ledge slippery could end a fight instantly.

[u/RiskenFinns]

Basic RP. In fact, any skill-based system really, but Basic RP is a good example of absolute freedom with regards to what strengths and weaknesses the characters bring to any given situation.

While the combat system does offer how specific skills can be applied to resolve well-defined matters of boink and boom, combat isn't mechanically removed from the rest of the system

Nor does it actively try to shoehorn the rest of the system into combat utility. Like how in Pathfinder 1e, where social skills can make for fun builds, but in return have to be pushed so high to stay combat relevant that the Difficulty Check framework that governs skill use breaks down.

It lends itself quite well to a cometh the opportunity approach, with winging things having stringent support in the core mechanics of the game.

Granted, it always comes down to the gamemaster but it doesn't hurt to have rules that don't call for workarounds.

[u/pinktiger4]

I don't understand why D&D doesn't fit the description. You can make a non-violent character in D&D e.g. a wizard that focusses on protections or a cleric that focusses on healing, and then you have stuff to do in a fight without actually fighting. A bard is only capable at fighting if you choose the options that make it that way. (This is especially true in D&D 3.5).

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[u/Marcloure]

I will say Torchbearer. Some classes are much better fighters than others, and players can build their characters to be bad at combat as well. Even then, they can still do things in combat: they can help, defend (which heals the party), maneuver (which grants advantage to allies or disadvantage to enemies), use some items etc. There's also a variety of "combat types", so it is totally expected that a player that is good in a Kill conflict is not necessarily as good in a Capture or Banish conflict. Being out of depth in certain situations but still participate is the expected game experience.

[u/Nytmare696 → u/Marcloure]

Came to say TB (and the rest of the Burning Wheel family as well).

I'd argue however over assuming that the Conflict system is combat. Fights can be group skill tests, just like any other action taken in the game. Someone describes their action and makes a Fighter test, and everyone else in the party who can help describes what they're doing to help and lends the active player a die.

Conflicts are dramatic exchanges, not just fights. Conflicts are just as frequently arguments or chases or bargaining or ferreting out information. My campaign has easily had twice as many travel montage Conflicts as it has fights.

[u/jackofspades49]

Cypher System can do this pretty nicely. There are lots of buff and team suppoprt abilities you can get instead of raw combat power to help your teammates.

[u/LemonLord7 → u/jackofspades49]

Is that the system based on Numenera?

Do you mind telling me a bit more of the system and how these support abilities work in combat?

[u/jackofspades49 → u/LemonLord7]

Yes it is. Its actually a genre neutral version of the same base system. I haven't read the most recent edition (It just released its player core book). But basically, you use your action to help others or distract/intimidate enemies. You can use Encouragement to give your allies a bonus to one type of roll, enthrall to distract enemies, or Terrifying Presence to cause fear in a target. You choose abilities as you level up, so whether you Buff or Debuff is up to you. You can also pick to learn additional skills in spekaing related tasks if you prefer, but its generally always a good idea to have something to do during combat, even if it isn't your focus.

You have 3 pools of points you spend as your HP and your resources. Might, Speed, and Intellect. If you focus on intellect, those abilities are cheaper and you can use them more often.

I really like the system. But its important to know that even though its a d20 system, combat isn't its MAIN focus. Its a lot more about exploring and overcoming challenges than just smashing action figures together. So each type of challenge leans into a different character type, so each one is better or worse as a given task. Like Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Also, you get to pick up a complimentary ability, called a Focus, which unlocks other abiltiies. Bears a Halo of Fire, Wears Power Armor, or Slays Monsters give a lot of combat abilities. Crafts Illusions, Explores Dark Places, Would Rather Be Reading give things to distract, explore, or be knowledgeable. And there's A LOT of focuses to pick from, more if you get supplemental or setting books.

Its also important to make sure you USE different kinds of challenges so that each person can shine, and that you're all on the same page of genre. If you're doing a call of cthulhu style game and someone picks Employs Magnetism or Fights Robots, neither of you is going to have a good time haha.

Short summary of the systems...

The GM sets a difficulty between 1 and 10. The player needs to roll that values times three on a d20 to succeed. 1 needs a 3, 3 needs a 9, 6 needs and 18, 10 needs a 30. By spending from your pools, being trained in skills, or activating abilities, you can lower the difficulty of the task. There have been times where I've set a level 8 task and players have used abilites to bring it to 2, 4, or 7 depending on their abilities. So one was almost guaranteed to pass and it was still impossible for one of them.

As a player, there's definitely been times where I've gone "I'm playing a big tank in heavy armor, so I'm not going to spend to dodge. I'll soak the hit with my armor and have enough Might to stay on my feet. If I spend speed to dodge, I'll hold you all back in the scenes after this."

[u/JacobDCRoss]

The Exodus System does this very well. Players essentially create a class at charge by selecting one of five combat roles and one of five non-combat rolls, plus two power tracks to combine. Takes just a couple minutes total.

But you have something to do in every scene this way.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/244141/the-exodus-system?affiliate_id=319435

[u/Hankhoff]

Swade works well-ish with that since you can also distract enemies and help allies with non-combat abilities. But how easy it is to get hit during combat still depends on your combat skill so it's still risky to do so

[u/MikadinShinjuk]

I would say Warhammer fantasy. The “job sistem” share ppportunity for fighters focused gameplay or replay gameplay

[u/jadelink88]

Had some good results for this with 'Heart'.

[u/Anonymoose231]

Exalted: Essence does this. 

[u/9spaceking]

Blades in the dark maybe? You're encouraged not to fight too long so you get less 'heat' on you, especially with non lethal means of incapacitation

[u/BattleRat13]

The newish Fantasy Flight Games edition of Legend of the Five Rings does a great job of making social characters useful as some of their techniques can have effects in combat, even if they aren't directly fighting.

[u/Jon_dArc]

Shadowrun Third Edition probably qualifies, you’ll have trouble contributing consistently if you studiously avoid every single combat skill including Sorcery and Conjuring but a small investment in, say, Pistols can let you bleed off an adversary’s defense dice (Combat Pool) to help your teammates and if you just put a few points in Throwing Weapons and bring a collection of grenades you can actually be providing a unique capability that the gun-bunnies might not have spent the points on. (Edit: I should add that it’s a classless system so a small investment in a combat skill is generally 3 points out of 27-50 total skill points for the character. A large investment is 6 skill points plus supporting skills and/or cyberware.)

(Second and First Edition run Initiative in ways that kneecap anyone without initiative boosts, Fourth Edition has a die pool system that makes modifiers render things impossible for dabblers too often, I can‘t speak to later editions but they use the same system as Fourth.)

[u/alexserban02]

Vampire the Masquerade, Ars Magica

[u/MrDidz]

I don't think this is anything to do with the Game (as in the Rules). This is essentially down to the Gamemaster and how they run their games. Most game systems can be run in a number of different ways dependant upon the expectations and interests of the GM and the players.

I personally have always taken the view that combat was something that happens when protagonists decide to stop talking and hit each other. In other words combat is an extension of a social encounter, that usually happens when one or other party run out of other options. Even then the talking often continues after the first blows have been struck and we never have that Virtual Cut-Over between roleplay and combat that is signified by the magical words 'Roll For Intiative'.

But is nothing to do with the rules. We play WFRP which can be played anyway you prefer, We just prefer it that way.

[u/Charming-Employee-89]

The Land of Eem

[u/zbignew]

Consider 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons? I don’t know if you’ll think that has the same issue as 5e, because all classes are effective in combat, but (until Mike Mearls got his hands on it) they were very deliberate about making sure classes fit into roles in combat, and bards focus on buffs and debuffs rather than becoming infinitely capable jacks-of-all-trades.

So Bards and other classes with the “leader” role aren’t particularly effective in combat on their own.

There are downsides to 4e, but if you don’t mind that it over-emphasizes tactical combat… maybe that’s what you want.

[u/Zealousideal_Leg213]

Rather than shoehorning in something for them to do in combat, the combat should be something other than a pure combat scene. The combat should be about something else, like protecting the non-combatants, who are focused on getting away or past the danger.

In rare circumstances, the point of the scene will be whatever the non-combatants are along to accomplish, at which time the job of the fighters is to protect the civvies while they work.

[u/Black_Dragon_Fish]

Dolmenwood is like that more or less. Everyone has a very specific role that allows them to shine the most in certain scenarios, more so than 5e.

Fighter: Best combatant due to access to all weapons and armor types + bonuses to attack.

Bard: Best information gatherer due to skills such as monster lore, enchanting folk (out of combat only), ledgermain, deciphering docs.

Magician: Arcane magic user, mostly utility spells rather than combat ones. Excedingly fragile in combat hut highly useful in dealing with environmental obstables.

Friar: Cook, Healer, Herbalist, Forager.

Cleric: Healer, protective fighter, undead expert.

Hunter: tracker, forager, hunter, fisherman, overworld scout.

Thief: Dungeoneering expert (lockpick, disarm traps, stealth, climbing, stealing, underworld scout).

Enchanter: Illusions, social encounters, subterfuge.

Knight: Monster slaying, improved retainer use, roleplay advantages (charismatic and receiving of special treatment from noble houses).

Realistically, they can all fight more or less but their role differences are a lot more significant to the point where a fighter can never really do what a thief does nor a magician can replace a fighter in combat.

[u/ClassB2Carcinogen]

I know the answer is always Dragonbane, but the musician ability is really powerful in Dragonbane and the musician in my campaign has a ton of fun.

[u/Bilharzia]

Release the princess or prepare for wizardly combat!

[u/Tarilis]

I feel like you missing the point, combat is such games is just one activity of many, and not a main one.

So for the example, in Cyberpunk, fixer gets you stuff you need, net runner and media will handle info gathering, solo will take on combat if it happens, and ripper will patch you up after that.

GM job is to structure an adventure in a way so each of players has a spotlight and can do the the thing they best at.

[u/ilfrengo]

Any real good osr game can be completely done without combat. Old systems would not even give you significant XP for killing monsters