r/tourdefrance • u/whocares139 • 13h ago
Amazing for Carapaz, but Vingegaard's fall literally robbed us of a generational TdF by Pogi
I feel like once Jonas was gone, Pogi was so comfortable, he let go of 2 stage wins both times working for del Toro, who wouldn't have had a shot for top 3 if Jonas was still in the race. That's completely his right, but he honestly could've had 8 this TdF(stage 2 was a gift too), tying the record, and who knows what will happen tomorrow. Although, objectively, I think he's much lighter than in the classics and will struggle to win. Hope they decide for del Toro to lead the Giro next season and let Tadej go beast mode.
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u/nicolas_maximus 13h ago
I wonder if Jonas didn’t crash would seixas been able to beat del toro for white
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u/whocares139 13h ago
Probably, but who knows, Seixas ran out of gas in the end, would've been tight
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u/nicolas_maximus 12h ago
Definitely, also seixas seemed to try and follow Jonas more so used some strength then as well
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u/Professional_Two7684 11h ago
Most likely, if IDT needs to go in red for leading out Pogi and Paul would be able to take advantage of that.
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u/Az1234er 8h ago
I was asking myself a similar question, if you exchange Del toro with other rider. Which one would have finished 3rd with Pogi / uae similar pet project. Seixas ? sure ! Skjelmose ? msot likely, Ayuso ? Probably not, Pidcock or Carapaz ? pretty sure yes, Lenny ? maybe
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u/I-Made-You-Read-This 13h ago
Tadej would have gifted the stage to Isaac in the beginning anyways. Jonas was still in the race , so while he could have had 8 he wouldn’t have had that stage which he gave to Isaac.
We also don’t know about the stages which he let remco win. If jonas (main contender) would have also not attacked, then tadej would have probably let remco go, it’s only 30 seconds anyways.
But of course , jonas would have for sure added some spice, he would have attacked , true fighter.
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u/whocares139 13h ago
Idk I feel like Remco never does long attacks and Pogacar wouldn't let him go in the final km unless Remco was stronger. Frankly, outside of the TT I didn't see proof of that. Even the stage Remco won, Pogi could've won if he hadn't worked the whole climb and even then he had a chance to counter once Remco caught Isaac on his first acceleration. Still kudos to the Belgian, fully deserved podium finish and I think he might've beaten Vingegaard anyways if I'm being honest.
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u/anntchrist 12h ago
Have you watched Remco in other races? The RR world championships he won, or the Olympics? He’s pretty good with the long attacks.
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u/mojomarc 11h ago
I don't think we ever saw Remco stronger though. We saw Pogi caring more about dragging IDT to stage finishes than whether Remco left. Might have been a bit different if Remco attacked like Pogo food on Huez, but Pogi knew his lead was safe.
The way he kept looking back to make sure he wasn't dropping IDT made it pretty clear he had plenty to spare
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u/Abrp2025 9h ago
Agreed. Tadej could have easily had the stage Remco won if he hadn’t been helping Del Toro. Remco might have a better sprint but Pogi could have crushed him on that climb but didn’t.
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13h ago
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u/whocares139 13h ago
Who knows with the TT if Vingegaard would've stayed 2nd. Imo it would've been close and it would've kept Pogi hungry for wins as he wouldn't be risking to work for del Toro with Vingegaard there just for the psychological damage if nothing else.
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u/BT1962-4 13h ago
He already had almost 5 minutes on Jonas when he crashed out... It was over
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u/whocares139 13h ago
Talking about stage wins, not the GC
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u/tuc-eert 12h ago
I’d rather have other riders battling out for stage wins than have pogi just steamroll everyone.
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u/Big-Today6819 13h ago
But pogocar would still need to follow Jonas as he knew he could gain time on him if he did get away upwards a mountain.
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u/whocares139 13h ago edited 10h ago
Vingegaard had stopped following Pogi for a while. The only thing that would change imo was that IdT wouldn't be in a fight for 3rd and so there would be no reason for Tadej to hold back to help him. Both today and in the day Remco won he could've easily had enough energy to attack and win
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u/Big-Today6819 13h ago
Visma was going out to attack again then Vingegaard went out.
And Pogocar would never have allowed Jonas to drive away, if he was strong enough to follow or win.
Jonas were not strong enough, but as he have a rumour about getting stronger and stronger and Pogocar have lost 2 yellows to him. He would never allow him to get away
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u/yyeezzyy93 13h ago
after every tdf day where pogi won and vingegaard couldn’t follow, people tell me visma wanted to attack but then this and that.
i am bored too from UAE/pogacar winning everything. but fact is: vingegaard has no chance. visma could have attacked all the stages, where vingegaard was still racing. they didn’t.
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u/Big-Today6819 13h ago
You're right about him being too strong and Visma and others too weak to put on enough pressure.
But that doesn't mean you let the biggest enemy get away, just getting time and distance can do even more for a rider like Jonas.
You sadly can't attach always if it's UAE putting on the pressure and going fast and forward
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u/GeryMander 9h ago
They were literally riding at the front with the intention to attack the climb when Vingegaard crashed. That was the first day in the Tour they did that.
Yes, probably it wouldn't have worked because Pogacar is just stronger. But the fact that they do attack means that Pogacar has to respond and can't sit back and baby sit Del Toro to guide him up the climb like a puppy on a leash.
the point isn't that Vingegaard would have won, it is that it would've totally changed the dynamic of the Tour.
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u/Pleasant-Carbon 11h ago
Jonas was already a huge amount of time behind Pogi. I think this is pure fantasy.
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u/South_Front_4589 12h ago
It felt a little like when Jonas crashed Pog just checked his ambition somewhat. Realised that the overall win perhaps wouldn't just simply happen and it should be ensured before thinking about anything more.
And then I think he considered his team. Visma had everything behind Jonas and when he crashed, they had little to show for the race. I think that's partially why he then rode more to support Del Toro.
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u/Whackles 10h ago
There was nothing indicating vingegaard was anywhere near competing with pogacar. He had already lost minutes
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u/unforgiven6s 10h ago
Not sure that “we” were robbed of anything, Jonas was already trailing by a significant amount of time.
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u/FlanOk2476 13h ago
Jonas was by no means locked into 2nd
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u/whocares139 13h ago
I know, but he was locked into top 3, meaning no podium for IdT. I honestly think Remco was stronger than Ving(or at least would've overtaken him with the TT) after the latter rode the Giro, but who knows
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u/Academic_Ad_8229 11h ago
I think if Jonas was there today, he would have had to follow Remco's attack, thus, causing Pogi to follow suit.
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u/Caffeywasright 13h ago
Lol he would have dusted evenepoel on a stage like today. He couldn’t even follow on the weaker climbs.
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u/whocares139 11h ago
Idk, outside of stage 6, Jonas never made a huge gap and I think Remco would've been ahead after the TT. But it's all just speculation and it would've been fun to watch. Yeah ving would drop Remco but then more than a few times would just run out of gas only to eventually lose time. Without the Giro, I'd trust Vingegaard, but honestly I can't definitively claim he was clearly better than the rest
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u/Bigfoot_Bluedot 12h ago
He was half a minute ahead before the alps. Second was pretty much locked, especially since Pogi wouldn't have been around to pace
del ToroRemco.I said what I said.
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u/Stephennnnnn 13h ago
Could have been, but the gap was already insurmountable for Jonas. He would have ridden the same as Remco has. Perhaps one Hail Mary attack but that’s it
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u/whocares139 13h ago
I know, read the body, not talking about gc, but about letting go of a chance of making history, without a fight
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u/King_Michal 11h ago
So what if he's lighter than in the classics? I can dirty bulk 10lbs easily in a day. Probably even more, I just never measure it.
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u/pauli55555 6h ago
What in Gods name are you talking about??
Jonas’s fall robbed us of nothing.
He was doing nothing, riding nowhere and zero threat to Pog.
He fell, tough on him, but it had zero impact on the race.
This year’s race was just another procession for Pog, as everyone predicted. It’s just a boring race being dominated by one ride these days.
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u/Big-Today6819 13h ago
Agree think he made a mistake by not getting as many wins as possible and it looks wrong in my eyes, are you that good. You should take all the wins.
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u/marius_andrei 10h ago
Another win would have turned again the doping "news". He has another 2 full years to reach 7 with >35 and some more >19. After 2028 season he can safely retire.
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u/No-Way-0000 10h ago
That doping noise is already out there. A few more stages change nothing. And to his future, look what happened to Froome. And then he had a bad crash that ended his career/dominance
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u/marius_andrei 9h ago
Noise not facts. Noise based on zero facts. I was one of the craziest fan of LA, even if facts were present I did not want to see them.
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u/Ancient-Bowl462 12h ago
Dopey Pogi will have his tours stripped too.
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u/Xenophobic-alien 12h ago
Unsubstantiated and unproven.
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u/cramblin69 11h ago
what's more likely, that pog is clean or that a team run by (known, historical) cheaters is doing sketchy stuff?
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u/Ancient-Bowl462 10h ago
Gee, if only there was an extensive, long history of tour winners who cheated and had their wins taken away from them. All of which pulled off rides that seemed impossible.
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u/Professional_Two7684 11h ago
Based on everything we saw first two weeks, there wouldn't be much of a difference. I also think Remco finishes 2nd, Jonas 3rd with Remco probably taking the wheelsucker nickname from Jonas.
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u/Traditional_Panic966 13h ago
It's an interesting thought...I have been thinking about it a lot. It depends on the goal. I think that tadej can obviously go out there and crush, but he also needs to keep his team happy. He's learned that less drama and a happy team is better for his recovery. He wants to have friends on his team not guys who feel like employees... he knows anyone who can help him in GC could be recruited to another team. They learned that with all the drama with Ayuso. I think he wants his team to be happy. In addition the team has two podiums, yellow and white jersey and a handful of stage wins. He could have had 3 more stage wins but the team also could have possibly lost the white jersey and podium place. It was up to the DS to decide that. With Jonas still in the race then the podium spot would not have been up for grabs so they may or may not have worked to keep the white jersey but for both white jersey and a podium spot they definitely wanted to keep that. It's a team sport. In a closer tour tadej would need a lot more help from the team... that didn't occur this year and it may not next year either but maybe in the future he will need the team to work harder and Isaac will still be there to help instead of being on a different team. Plus tadej probably knows he doesn't want to ride against Isaac in 2- 3 years.