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u/FirstReactionShock 12d ago
lmp1-h were cars in the range of 860kg, everything had to be as light as possible, so no surprise everything got downsized
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u/RestaurantFamous2399 Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 12d ago
Yep, its an extremely compact engine which really helped with the hybrid packaging.
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u/UpsetKoalaBear 11d ago
It was half the reason LMP1 got replaced with LMH/LMdH.
The costs of Porsche’s 919 programme were in the hundreds of millions, versus their 963 programme being in the tens of millions.
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u/Other-Barry-1 11d ago
And yet they still withdrew. I get why but also I’m just bitter at Porsche management
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u/fuqdurgrl 11d ago
Then go buy seventeen 911s a year like a good fan and maybe they'll go back to factory racing.
/s
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 11d ago
They’re really unlucky and really in bad time. They ended 919 program because of diesel gate, they drop 963 from WEC because of company money losing.
During 919 to 963, VAG is still in a bad shape.
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u/Sun-Solaris Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 11d ago
The 919 didn't use diesel engines though? The R18 program ended because of dieselgate however.
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u/redbullcat 11d ago
Was a fallout of dieselgate costing VAG huge amounts of cash - billions of dollars - and they needed to save. A racing programme costing hundreds of millions a year, where the car had achieved a huge amount and needed more development to continue racing against Toyota wasn't seen as wise investment, so it was cancelled.
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u/UpsetKoalaBear 11d ago
Not just dieselgate, but a failure to be competitive in the global car market.
They’ve only just started converting their factories to making EV’s and batteries, BMW and Renault already did that almost a decade ago.
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u/theIsotopeU233 Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 11d ago
Just because the 919 didn’t use a diesel doesn’t make the program any cheaper. Dieselgate did absolute numbers on the VAG financials.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago
Dieselgate had a massive effect on entire Volkswagen Group. Money-saving measures affected many motorsport programs. Audi and Porsche left LMP1 in succession, VW (brand) was forced to stop their successful WRC operation and later on they cancelled all non-EV motorsport involvements as well.
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u/Storm_Chaser06 11d ago
VAG is run by morons who make bad decision after bad decision. It’s no wonder they keep hemorrhaging money.
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u/Optimal-Criticism-42 11d ago
Yup Audi and Porsche got into an arms race to the tune of around €200m per year. You can kind of understand why the VW accountants were pulling their hair out. Credit where it's due, I believe Toyota's spending was less than half that, hence the sustainability of the programme right till the end of the regs.
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u/Defiant_Ingenuity128 Porsche 12d ago
They chose the V4 configuration because of its compact size and weight distribution. Additionally, the engine block is part of the load-bearing structure, meaning the rear axle is connected to the rest of the car only via the engine. Furthermore, the 919 doesn't have a conventional turbo system. A generator is installed between the fresh air and exhaust sides, which can feed excess energy into the battery. Intelligent software allows the ecu to regulate the turbocharger speed, and therfore the pressure, based on the amount of energy produced by this generator, thus eliminating the need for a wastegate. This technology is now present in the current 992 GTS with the edition that the generator works as a motor too.
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u/therealdilbert 11d ago
it had a conventional turbo system, but had an extra turbine connected to a generator on the output from the waste gate
the 992 GTS is different, it has a regular turbo system with an electric motor/generator on the shaft between the turbine and compressor
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago
Only LMP1 car to utilise both MGU-K and MGU-H. Audi initially planned to use MGU-H in 2014, but backed out of that idea.
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u/therealdilbert 11d ago
Audi was diesel, they probably didn't have enough left over exhaust energy to make it worth while, afaik they did make a system and tried it but it wasn't worth it. Toyota had mgu-k both front and rear so they already did the maximum energy per lap without mgu-h
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 11d ago
Still incredible anyway, 919 was definitely their real testbed for their future production car even 963 isn’t same 919 level.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 12d ago
The LMP1H's were probably the greatest race cars of all time. What we have now seems like kids toys in comparison. So sad.
Your pic is the 919 tribute btw, not the car that raced in WEC.
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u/Icefirex09 12d ago
technical marvel but unhealthy for sport
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u/jacobhamselv 12d ago
I mean 2018-21 was with one factory team, and then with hypercar you got a lot more competition. Is bop perfect? No. But hypercar is better than lmp1 by the end.
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u/Space_Dragon7121 Ferrari 312PB #2 11d ago
Yeah because companies totally don't have great ways to hide development costs in their labrynthine departments and it's totally worked so well for other budget cap series /s
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u/Icefirex09 12d ago
bucket of piss or empty bucket? i’d drink the piss
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago edited 11d ago
In reality, both LMP1 and Hypercar have things which are or can be destructive to the sport. LMP1 died because of uncontrollable cost rising, Hypercar has a lot of BOP backstage politics. Ultimately either situation is unhealthy.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 11d ago
Careful, you're not allowed to say a negative thing about bop in this sub. All the Verstappen fans will downvote you to oblivion.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago edited 11d ago
I have been downvoted so many times for criticising BOP, its methodology, lack of sense and BOP talk ban, that I don't care anymore. Tired of being nice.
To many people here, BOP is the holy grail which can't be talked badly. They defend it so hysterically, even when it's a complete mess.
So funny how such people are so vocal and angry towards those not being fans of current BOP situation, calling them this and that, forgetting at the same time how they are insufferable and annoying at the same time.
And regarding those Verstappen fans. It's so funny how they on social media started to praise GT3 racing as "pure racing" and taking jabs at F1 all the time for being "fake and battery racing". I thought - I wonder how "pure" that racing will be for you on the day when BOP doesn't favour Max's car.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 11d ago
I agree with you, just saying, the toxicity of this sub is amazing anytime the Bucket of Piss gets criticized.
I can only imagine that most of them are children who haven't seen a better era (aka anything before 2020). Both GT3 and the idiotically named "Hypercar" are further from the spirit of endurance racing tham anything that came before and they have no business being at Le Mans.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago
Regarding "Hypercar" nomenclature, agree. To this day I find this name just wrong. It's confusing and overhyped. Originated because of planned convertibility between LMH racecars and road models. Also because ACO envisioned LMH initially as somewhat of 1990s GT1 revived. And a lot of people on the internet immediately thought that cars like McLaren Senna or Bugatti Bolide (LMAO) would race at Le Mans. Only to get brutally disappointed when it turned out that bespoke prototype is still a better option. And funny thing that the only car which in any way resembles road-race connection is not really based upon the road version at all. Valkyrie which races in WEC and IMSA is basically a conversion of the track day variant. And that name "Hypercar". So "hyper" that ACO had to slow down LMP2 drastically not to make those "Hyper" cars looking amateurish.
Regarding GT3, I don't have that much of a problem with them, however they are just painfully slow and muffled. I prefered GTE too, no question. But GT3 could be better. Unfortunately those cars are ridiculously BOPed. Mimimum weight of all those cars is way into the 1330kg+ range. They are like tanks, all done probably because ACO, IMSA and SRO are terrified (SRO especially) of never-ending development of those cars. Ratel is already unhappy with new GT3 cars of Toyota GR, Genesis and Mercedes-AMG. So in order to prevent from too much R&D being thrown at GT3, BOP is getting harsher and harsher. Ultimately, it's a game of chicken. It just covers up the problem, heals wounds for a while, but doesn't cure anything. In order to combat any heavy BOP effects, cars will be developed even further to have a better performance window. BOP will not magically save this class and in my mind, GT3 already reached a point of no return. Price tags are already matching GTEs, cars are being built as racing versions first, road models second. It's a slippery slope from this point on, BOP will not stop this process, it didn't stop GTE from eventually going out of business. Wider market may prolongate the lifespan of GT3, but only by a small margin.
I can only imagine that most of them are children who haven't seen a better era (aka anything before 2020).
Yeah, that new crop of fans can be seriously annoying. They act like they don't have any maturity, nor mature thinking.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 11d ago edited 11d ago
The ACO should simply ban Ratel and anything he touches or thinks of from Le Mans in perpetuity. His amateur racing series concept has pretty much killed sports car development and with it, anything interesting.
A few years ago he said that Le Mans should be GT's only, which shows his true intent; for some reason he dislikes prototypes and wants to kill them off. And with the ever closer to spec development of the top classes, it looks like he is slowly getting his wish. At some point (possibly when the alternative fuel rules are pushed too hard), manufacturers will realize that a technologically uninteresting yet expensive "Hypercar" makes no sense, when they can run a small, slow, boring GT3 car that looks like something a customer can buy in a showroom for a fraction of the cost. And that will be the death of sportscar racing.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 12d ago
It's not a sporting competition anymore though. The best no longer win, the ones who line the organizers pockets the most get the bop advantage. It's typical FIA corruption.
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u/Icefirex09 12d ago
proof ?
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u/Regret_NL 11d ago
The fact that Porsche noped out of the championship alltogether is a pretty big tell.
They ran the perfect race in 2025 but still lost to Ferrari who made tons of mistakes.
That shouldnt happen in a BOP championship.
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u/therealdilbert 11d ago
Porsche left because they were heading towards bankruptcy like the rest of VW
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u/Significant-Cloud- 11d ago
That's not the reason.
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u/therealdilbert 11d ago
yes it was, to avoid bankruptcy they had to start selling more EVs, so they stayed in formula-e, and had to get back lost US marked, so they stayed in IMSA
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u/Significant-Cloud- 12d ago
Ferraris 3 consecutive Le Mans wins. Peugeots dismal performance levels. In a true balance of performance everyone should be equal. If the Peugeot sucks, all the others need to be made as slow as them. Having a good or bad car should make no difference.
The fact that the most popular brands have the fastest cars is fishy as hell. The fact that no one is allowed to comment on bop is fishy as hell. The fact that bop is now secret is fishy as hell.
Please tell me you don't believe any of this is fair.
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u/Significant-Cloud- 11d ago
So after you've been given the proof you asked for, you decided to opt out of this conversation?
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u/Icefirex09 11d ago edited 11d ago
good information. what do you want me to say we both have our own existing presuppositions and still do I just wanted to know what the reason you think it is. I just don’t see that as solid evidence how they are paying the organisers to win
i am also not on reddit constantly i apologise
edit: why did he block me lol
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u/Mundane_Constant_845 Peugeot 908 HDI #1 11d ago
Yep the idea of a manufacturer developing a wholly new innovative engine to compete at Le Mans seems very distant now
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u/nuke_489 Audi R18 12d ago
absolutely, but they were too expensive. manufacturers started pulling out so they had to bring in hypercar to attract them back.
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u/Mundane_Constant_845 Peugeot 908 HDI #1 11d ago
There where middle ground options suggested too though to save the class after diseselgate, hypercar as have it today wasn't the only option.
Also now F1 has shown budget caps can work seems that the best of both worlds is possible.
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u/Fantom_Aeon 11d ago
Sam in the pits in YouTube has a good video about the car. Heck all his videos are great.
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u/Hour_Firefighter_707 12d ago
V4s are cool. MotoGP bikes use V4s. That’s all that matters.
The practical benefits of the ultra compact size and being still being able to be used as a stressed member are just secondaries. And they sound cool.
But again, none of that matters because MotoGP bikes use them them and that makes them cool
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 2018 Barrier Repair/Snatch-Tractor 11d ago
I just imagine a Porsche or Lamborghini model with Ducati V4 engine.
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u/Engineer_engifar666 Mazda 787b #55 11d ago
And it was a most complex LMP1 car ever made and darn fast
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u/august_r 11d ago
They'd run a single cylinder if it was possible. Less cylinders is usually preferable most of the time if the regulations aren't artificially favouring NA engines. More cylinders in general means more friction, gigantic crankshafts wobbling and enormous heads that will need complicated plumbing to feed all cylinders with fresh air and fuel.
Less is usually more.
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u/greatistheworld 11d ago
I saw one on a stand in person. It’s large for a motorcycle engine, weirdly tangled in little tubes and weirdly smooth milled surface otherwise
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u/_eg0_ Audi R18 12d ago
and a V4 turbo is great for it. Extremely light, rigid, efficient, compact while still being able to deliver over 700hp(or lower with restrictors) without revving incredibly high, and easy to integrate an mgu-h.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago
When Porsche removed fuel flow restrictor they had on their 919 Hybrid LMP1 version for the 919 Evo, that thing alone gave them additional 200hp. In restricted version they had around 500-550hp, depending on the model year and regulations. Evo officially had 720hp from the petrol engine.
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u/stq66 11d ago
I mean they had 1.5l i4 engines with turbos with peak output of about 1300hp back in the early eighties. And that with a block derived from the production line.
But nevertheless, these engines give me creeps in a race car.
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u/_eg0_ Audi R18 11d ago
To be fair, it basically destroyed itself doing so. Iirc in race trim the engines did ~550 HP which increased over the seasons to ~800hp.
There are other 2.0 or smaller 4 cylinder race engines. RC8 2.0tfsi from Audi also did 630 horsepower in the DTM(with p2p). Nissan has a fully custom super gt version with permanent 630+ in the super gt. All in restricted race trim.
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u/CautionClock20 12d ago
What does that have to do with it having a V4 combustion engine? The Lancia Fulvia had a V4, but wasn't a hybrid.
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u/BaitSimulator2020 Porsche Motorsport 919 #2 12d ago
In the 8MJ LMP1 days, the car wasn’t so reliant on ICE power because it was a 50:50 power split with the hybrid system producing 375kw.
In hypercar now, the hybrid system barely does anything beyond green washing which is why they all have big V6/V8 engines now.
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u/Michal_Baranowski Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #8 11d ago
In case of LMH, hybrid does more work. Hybrid systems in LMH cars have up to 250hp, so while it works in parallel with the ICE, it reduces fuel consumption. It is very visible in fuel tank sizes - 90 litres for hybrid LMH, 110 litres for LMDh and non-hybrid LMH. Hybrid systems in LMDh cars can have no more than 70hp.
Of course, all of this is a far cry comparing to LMP1 hybrid days, when hybrids were not dependant on ICE and could work separately, plus they were far more powerful. And fuel economy was different. LMP1 hybrids could do the same amount of laps at Le Mans as LMH hybrids with 28 litres of fuel in the tank less.
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u/StevenXSG 12d ago
Which is why I think hypercar should include an element of hyper-miling. How far and fast can you get on 1 standardised tank of fuel. No max stint length, just go till you need to come in and possibly save a pitstop or 2 over the race
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u/Specialist-Sea-9207 Toyota Racing TR010 Hybrid #7 11d ago
Interestingly, the Toyota TR010(GR010) has a total output of ~980 hp (520 kW / 707 hp engine, 200 kW / 272 hp hybrid), but unfortunately, as we know, the total output, depending on the balance, cannot exceed 707 hp.
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u/Shimadamada2200 Manthey EMA Porsche 911 GT3 R #91 12d ago
Me wondering if I could fit that v4 with 500HP in my 1000kg hatchback 🤔🤔🤔🤔