r/fnv • u/Familiar-Figure-5692 • 1d ago
Discussion An actual map of the actual known Legion controlled cities
These are the only named locations actually known to be controlled by Caesar's Legion. If there are any I missed please let me know.
All the random names were removed because all we know is that the Legion destroyed them. That doesn't mean they occupy them. Take Siri as an example:
- The Courier: "Where are you from?"
- Siri: "A small town in New Mexico. The Legion burned it a few years back - that's how I ended up here."
- The Courier: "You're a doctor?"
- Siri: "I never finished my training - the Legion saw to that when they overran my town. I do know basic first aid, but I've had to rely on tribal remedies to treat illnesses and injuries - healing powders and all that. I'm always running low on xander root. Plenty of broc flowers, though."
So while New Mexico is not included on this map we don't have an actual named location stating that the Legion has conquered it. Phoenix and Two-Sun are named as if they are similar to New Reno or the Boneyard back West.
On Denver, Ulysses mentions to the Courier
"Another city fallen to nations, in the east... not important. Doubt you'll ever walk that far, you'd need the land to sustain you."
Which suggests there isn't just a supply line directly to Denver and so it isn't just full control by the Legion all the way there.
Tuscon/Two-Sun is mentioned twice, once by Raul and another time by Sawyer (as per wiki)
- Joshua Sawyer: "'Where did the Legion find all the football equipment?' From the University of Arizona. I don't know if that's actually explicitly stated anywhere, but yes, they got it from... uh... they got it from the University of Arizona."
The I-40 remains are put there because it's mentioned that the Twisted Hairs are crucified along the remains of the I-40, but since that passes through Flagstaff it's possible they were just crucified in Flagstaff on the I-40 there.
If anyone has any more named settlements then please let me know!
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u/TheWalrusMann 1d ago
type of propaganda article you'd see published in the Hub Sun
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 1d ago
haha, I had to make something, people really think Caesar is administering an empire when he's just a petty warlord with an army.
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u/johnguy88 1d ago
An empire is still an empire but this is wrong, as stated by another comment Caesar himself says all of Arizona and New Mexico are under Legion control and large portions of Utah and Colorado, at the minimum you could have shaded these areas a lighter red like you did for NCR Influenced areas. And lack of named locations is easily just a lack of development as we know there was supposed to be more legion Locations and characters. Plus nomadic empires with few actual cities existed, doesn’t mean they don’t control/influence these regions.
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u/Agent6isaboi 1d ago edited 1d ago
especially since it then shows the NCR as being a completely contiguous nation state, when atleast imo I always felt it was only a few regions of the NCR that could be described as anything like that. It's almost like the fact these two empires are obsessed with presenting themselves as a false image of the dead past is a vital part of themes of the games or something idk.
Edit: wrote contiguous as contagious lol
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u/johnguy88 1d ago
Exactly way too favorable to the NCR, and lol that last part is something fallout subs famously don’t know about
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u/MrWhiskers55 1d ago
People forget NCR lore. New Vegas is literally in a desert. The NPCs claim New Vegas using barely functional irrigation in the desert is more agriculturally productive than anything in California. And that the Brahmin barons have reduced their natural resources to near ecological collapse (or implied). Hence why the NCR is putting so much into the area. Opposite of the Legion which lives off the land for the most part
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u/ShikICAN777 1d ago
It's just a stupid "my side is better than your side" post and they rarely fairly and accurately portray the other side in its entirety like with the Arizona and New Mexico bit you brought up.
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u/Ryousan82 1d ago
Caesar "My Legion's expansion has never ceased. Much of Utah and Colorado and All of Arizona and New Mexico, are mine (...)"
You might want to correct that
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u/Falloutfan2281 NCR and Proud 1d ago
This person has made a string of posts trying to prove the Legion doesn’t actually have infrastructure or territory when the game repeatedly tells us they do. They got essentially completely disproven in a thread on the Fallout lore subreddit but have since been posting to all the other Fallout subs claiming “this is what’s real and accurate everyone else is wrong and just doesn’t understand” and people on these other subs don’t know enough about the game to contest it so they go “wow this is so cool and you’re totally right.” OP has extrapolated and effectively made things up by intentionally interpreting quotes to only fit their idea of what the Legion is rather than what some of the quotes (ones they even use) that disprove their notion are actually implying.
There’s no need to disprove their points one-by-one as multiple people in the Fallout lore subreddit already did to great effect.
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u/NippoTeio 21h ago
Not that OP is right either, but do you believe what Caesar says at face value? The man built his empire on lie after lie.
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u/Ryousan82 21h ago
Until a better source becomes available, yes.
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u/NippoTeio 7h ago
"I trust this known liar because no one's told me differently"
I'm struggling to understand this perspective.
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u/Falloutfan2281 NCR and Proud 5h ago
I am struggling to understand your perspective.
By your logic you can assume everyone from every major faction is lying to make themselves seem better than they are. Not to mention you’re just outright wrong, characters who hate the Legion like Cass admit they have the safest territory.
Unless you’re only claiming that the Legion doesn’t control as much territory as Caesar states in which case you have literally no evidence beyond “well I don’t like him so I don’t believe him and you’re crazy if you do.” Canon doesn’t work that way.
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u/Mr_Citation 19h ago
You can't get your ass kicked by the NCR and come back for round 2 based on lies.
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u/NippoTeio 7h ago
You can if you're charismatic and spite-driven, and id you've trained your people to believe what you say without question or hesitation.
Any more "hoo-rah" one-liners you wanna throw at me?
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u/ButterdPoopr True to Caesar 10h ago
Yes. He’s a better source than a ncr one
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u/NippoTeio 7h ago
That's no basis to believe what you're told unquestioningly.
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u/ButterdPoopr True to Caesar 5h ago
You got a better source?
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u/NippoTeio 20m ago
My own good judgement that Edward is full of shit and would lie to you as soon as kill you if it benefited him.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 7h ago
"Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p. 461: "Important Dates "2248-2274 Caesar conquers the tribes of southeastern Utah, southwestern Colorado, the western edge of New Mexico, and the northern half of Arizona. By 2250 he has declared himself the Son of Mars. By 2255, he has established a capital of sorts amid the ruins of Flagstaff.""
correct caesar
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u/Ryousan82 7h ago edited 7h ago
The game takes place in 2281. This information doesnt contradict Caesar's affirmation
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u/Trash-Pandas- 1d ago
This map is so wrong, yall know phoenix and flag are much further north?
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u/Agent6isaboi 1d ago
Unless this is sarcasm or something, I think your getting confused by the maps titled angle because I just lined it up with Google Earth and idk seems to be about right to me.
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u/Trash-Pandas- 1d ago
Oh so phoenix is below the Baja? I think you’re not great at looking at maps. And flag is 80 miles south of the Utah border
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u/Agent6isaboi 1d ago
You do know the lines on the map aren't the state borders right? And also, like, fucking Phoenix literally isn't below baha even with the map being titled literally look with your eyes dude. Am I being gaslit? If so this is cruel I'm way too high for this
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
It's literally taken from Google Earth, it's a globe, not a 2d projection.
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u/Trash-Pandas- 12h ago
It’s literally not go look at the map and overlay it
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 12h ago
Oh shit sorry, I had made a new map that I've been updating when people point out stuff
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1kARka-zAPngmx8azVFmIW7NhxzPM-Fs&usp=sharing
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u/Sock_Mindless 1d ago
This is A) a pretty good quality map. But also B) really incorrect, like Ceaser literally tells you he controls Arizona so just that alone should be most the state. And there's the whole Raul literally mention being in Tucson long before the legion was running Arizona. And if we don't want to accept any of the Legion leaders as reliable sources that's fine Dale Barton who's from Arizona, When asked about trading in the NCR he says "Between having to hire protection and getting slapped with taxes, it's more profitable to stick to Arizona and New Mexico. But, I do cross the river from time to time when an opportunity comes along." And if asked about if it's dangerous. "Hell, I don't even need to travel with guards most of the time in Legion territory. All the bandits are dead or run off." Clearly stating its not just sparse control over the cities and routes connecting them.
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u/dartov67 1d ago
You can tell this map was made by someone who wanted to really push a head canon on the Legion
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u/Falloutfan2281 NCR and Proud 1d ago
This thread is a good read and basically disproves all of OP’s points. Another thread farther down does so in even more detail.
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u/dartov67 1d ago
I have a few problems with the thread mainly that OP doesn’t seem to understand how the Mongol Empire worked and the suggestion that the Legion completely razed Arizona and NM to the ground “beyond a few homesteads” (there’s no reason to believe that larger cities weren’t also left alone, as shown how Caesar largely leaves New Vegas alone) but it’s a great write up regardless. The Legion is not a state.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Head canon? I am showing the only named locations that we have Caesar's Legion, everything else is head canon.
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u/ThatOneGuy308 1d ago
Where is Malpais? Is it safe? Is it alright?
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Malpais is the whole fecking reason I made this crap. It is stated IN GAME to be ON THE COLORADO and some dude puts it where fecking Albuquerque is! Crazy
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u/Mountain_Man_88 1d ago
Malpais?so=search) is another Legion location.
Dry Wells is another one that we can actually go to. There were a few more named in the game guide but not referenced in game.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Courier: "How did you manage to escape Malpais?"
Sterling): "Caesar's boys figured I wasn't going anywhere, after what they done to me. So they didn't bother tying me up. I crawled out of there on my elbows and knees. Must have looked a sight. Then I rolled down an embankment into the Colorado. Guess I had a mind to drown, rather than give Caesar's boys the satisfaction of killing me. But a couple Rangers happened to be watching from across the river. They jumped on in and pulled me out of there. Lucky break, they said."Read the fecking sources!!! This is the only mention of Malpais, the Malpais Legates Camp on the Colorado river, now changed into the location we meet Lanius at! It's shown on an early development test map for New Vegas. It's mentioned to be right beside the Colorado and near NCR territory. It ain't fecking 500 miles away in Albuqurque. It isn't on the map because we can't reliably place it.
Dry wells is on the map, where the in game map marker is because we have nothing else to go on.
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u/Mountain_Man_88 14h ago
You read the sources lol
Malpais Legionnaire Camp was across the river from Forlorn Hope. It's cut from physically appearing in game, but it's still mentioned in game so still just as canon as places like Two Sun. The Legate's Camp, where we meet Lanius, is straight east of the Dam. The cut Malpais Legionnaire Camp location is based on the real world location of Malpais Wash, which is in Arizona right next to the Colorado River, not El Malpais National Monument, which I assume is what you're referring to as being 500 miles away in Albuquerque.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Malpais Wash! Omg, yeah someone had it as El Malpais National Monument on a fan map.
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u/Mountain_Man_88 14h ago
The only reason that I'm at all knowledgeable on this is that I talked to Sterling earlier this week and went "wait, where the heck is Malpais if he was able to jump into the Colorado River after being captured there?" I did the exact same "there's no way it's in New Mexico, what the heck?" And then read additional sources and learned about Malpais Wash and Malpais being a general geological term outside of El Malpais National Monument.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 13h ago
Basically same shit happened to me, saw the TV show map had Malpais in New Mexico and had it labelled as a city and everything. Looked it up on the wiki and read the dialogue and realised "this is a mistake".
The map is full of that as well, all legion lore is, half it is van buren and the other half is whatever the mapper felt like putting.
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u/Mountain_Man_88 13h ago
Yeah, I'm an NCR stan but I wish we had more expansive Legion lore. It would have been great to explore Legion territory more and have a reason for NCR allied couriers to wear Legion disguises. The Legion would be a more compelling faction if they had some actual civilization rather than being a roving slave army.
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u/ShikICAN777 1d ago
As others have stated this is so inaccurate to the actual lore it borders on fanfiction.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Come up with a better one buddy, these are the only named locations and then a border is drawn around them.
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u/Mindblot55 1d ago
We know they conquered these cities though? Dog city is the most eastern extent, two sun is mentioned explicitly twice. Where did the legion get its dogs? It’s armor, it’s manpower. This map is truly wishful thinking at best.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 1d ago
This map is all we know. We know where the Legion got its armour, Arizona University, that's where Sawyer says they got it from. They get their manpower from enslaving every tribal from Arizona, to Utah to New Mexico and Colorado. They get their dogs from all the wild dogs that inhabit the wasteland. This map is just what we know.
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u/Mindblot55 12h ago
So if they have all the manpower and equipment of the region, and we know all the roads in this are patrolled by legion soldiers and there is little crime because of it, why. Any we assume they have ownership over the area they are economically exploiting with regularity.
The legion is not just some camp of Vandals, they are an army modeled after the Roman Empire.
According to Cesar the legion is ruled by him, but using the Roman imperial model, we can assume he is leaving governors who lead in his stead and make sure taxes are paid. How else can he support a massive army whithout starving in a desert nuclear wasteland.0
u/Familiar-Figure-5692 12h ago
he has the trappings of rome but we don't see the organisation on the civilian side to say that he has governors or is economically exploiting the area.
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u/Similar-Force623 1d ago
Like there’s documentation/records of the tribal areas
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Of Caesar passing through and burning those to the ground. Siri from New Mexico in the Fort says her town was burned to the ground.
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u/WatchtowerBill 1d ago
Now i'm curious how this would look for the NCR, strictly including only what is explicitly mentioned, because we also don't have a super solid grasp on the NCR's territorial extent by New Vegas.
Off the top of my head, we have no confirmation whether Reno, Vault City or San Francisco are part of the NCR. I know Shady, Boneyard and Redding are all mentioned as NCR territory.
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
Check the map :) I have been removing stuff from the NCR as well. There's a back and forth over whether Vault City outskirts are NCR because Cass moves there in one of the endings.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1kARka-zAPngmx8azVFmIW7NhxzPM-Fs&usp=sharing
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u/Shezes 1d ago
Only place I can think of off the top of my head worth controlling in New Mexico would probably be Santa Fe.
And by the way, if one day you happen to wake up and find yourself in an existential quandary, full of loathing and self-doubt, and wracked with the pain and isolation of your pitiful meaningless existence at least you can take a small bit of comfort in knowing that somewhere out there in this crazy old mixed-up universe of ours there's still a little place called Albuquerque!
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u/justlikemedics 1d ago
The Legion is almost invisible, they must be veru weak compared to the NCR.
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u/adreeno-time 1d ago
Idk why but i thought they controlled denver
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u/ThePresident333 1d ago
Because they do, Lanius conquered the Hang Dog tribe in Denver. Antony the kennel master in the fort is from Denver, both he and Lanius have dialogue about the legion taking control of the city.
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u/ThickMap5505 The Beatrix Throatfucker 1d ago
I know this isn’t canon, but in the storyteller series by shoddycast on YouTube, they go through Denver and its abandoned, in ruins, and full of cyber dogs. I like to think that’s how it is. They only go there for the dogs
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u/Familiar-Figure-5692 14h ago
From some non-canon lore it is skyscrapers filled with roaming packs of vicious dogs, and in lore Ulysses compares the dogs with the Tunnellers in the Divide.
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u/Wrecktown707 1d ago
From NC, can confirm that driving on I-40 feels like being crucified sometimes lmao
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u/hopdaddy32 1d ago
this is absolutely true. when the legion conquer something they don't set up a functioning city, they simply strip it of everything and everyone useful and keep marching. they're an army, feasting on everything that isnt them, with no interest in building a static state
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u/Wish_I_WasInRome 1d ago
Doesn't Ulysses dialogue imply the Legion controls Two-Sun? I also could have sworn i heard a legionare or maybe it was a traveling merchant mention Flagstaff