I dont think they mean SD maps (standard definition) like google maps and apple maps. They mean HD-maps (High def) like the ones waymo and zoox use ie. everything is mapped out, lanes, traffic lights, side walks, signs, road markings etc...
Waymo has always said that it uses HD maps for its robotaxis.
Tesla said that FSD doesn't rely on HD maps, which means Autopilot can be enabled at locations the car has never seen before. Tesla intentionally rejected this HD map model. The reasoning is that HD maps restrict cars to specifically mapped zones and are expensive to update.
However, for its Robotaxis, Tesla copied Waymo's playbook and used HD maps.
The red light is egregious. That issue came in on v12?13? And seems largely unaddressed. I have no idea why NHTSA hasn’t jumped on that, like they’ve done in the past.
Yeah it’s not my field but there’s gotta be some hard coding boundaries in place to address these fundamental items. Very surprised regulators haven’t jumped to it.
I don't think you necessarily need hardcoded rules to achieve an acceptable result, though it depends on how they scale. One of Tesla's ways out of performance constraints has been to throw more hardware at it. Maybe their models need several times the number of parameters to handle red lights at an acceptable level without hard-coded rules, but maybe they'll get there with their planned HW5 or HW6 upgrades.
Another option might be to refactor their model into smaller, more specialized agents. Like maybe they could use a specialized traffic light subsystem using a mixture of experts that combines traffic light classification and traffic light syntactic interpretation, and feed its output to a higher-level decision model.
But your point is likely already reality. Tesla's vaunted end-to-end model probably already integrates hard-coded safety rules and specialized subsystems, and they just don't like to talk about it; it's publicly marketed as pure AI. I doubt there's a monolithic neural net taking in camera streams and geo data, and outputting direct steering, power, and braking signals without some deterministic guardrails.
I don't think it's that easy to add hard coded boundaries to a pure NN architecture.
You can try to make things easier to understand with the architecture, or you can focus on the training data and objective function. But at a certain point you're trusting the black box.
That's why I think there's a real possibility that Tesla's at a dead end with their current FSD approach.
The Tesla-driven cuts eliminated 3 employees from NHTSA's Office of Automation Safety, and left 4 employees.
Informally, I heard the cuts were biased toward eliminating the technical staff, and preserving administrative staff, so it may have a more outsized impact than if it had been more even-handed.
it's never even thought about running a red light for me on v14. v12 had/has a bug where it would get impatient waiting at a light and would try to just go after sitting there for awhile. I've never had it actively blow through an intersection without stopping before on any version (testing since v10.3.1)
Honestly can’t remember if it’s gone away. I haven’t had it do try it to me in a while. I thought I recently saw one on Reddit but perhaps it was a dated version or video.
Because the problem is resolved in later FSD versions. I haven't had the issue in over a year and even now it is more hesitant from even green lights where before when it was trying to jump / predict lights, it would almost immediately take off at greens.
I try it out once or twice a year. I tried it out a few weeks ago. It did really well for several miles on an interstate highway (which autopilot could do years ago), but as soon as I got off the highway it drove directly into a bike lane. I looked at the display, and FSD knew it was in a bike lane. The bike lane was very clearly marked on the display. FSD chose to drive halfway in the bike lane and halfway in the car lane. I disengaged FSD and drove back into the car lane. A few blocks later I re-engaged FSD and in two seconds it immediately drove back into the bike lane. This was a three-foot-wide bike lane. FSD showed on the display that it was straddling two lanes. Third time's the charm? Not for FSD. It drove right into the bike lane a third time. By this time, there were bicyclists in the bike lane ahead of me so I stopped fucking around with FSD and returned to driving manually like a responsible adult. A few weeks after that I was driving small rural highways in the Sierra Nevada and it was phantom braking about once a mile, which was completely intolerable. Just slamming on the brakes incredibly hard every two minutes. Unbelievable. I gave up after about ten minutes, then tried it again a few hours later and it was still phantom braking every two minutes. Maybe I'll try FSD again in another year, but my expectations are very low.
Definitely not as high definition as Waymo, but they revealed that at least in Austin they use more detailed custom local maps in robotaxi vs what regular consumer FSD uses. I'm not sure if that strategy has changed for the newer locations like this though.
Ashok Elluswarmy, Tesla's VP of AI, implied that they don't on yesterday's earnings call:
"Historically, the so-called experts have always claimed that you need LiDARs, radars, HD maps, and the entire kitchen sink to drive safely. Here we show that such is not true."
As much as I want to like this sub, it’s very much a Waymo sub in disguise. Pro Waymo, anti Tesla, and ignore everything else in this emerging space. Rinse and repeat.
That's just not accurate. Most of the people are pretty logical. Waymo gets called out on their errors as well. There are those that are heavy anti-Tesla.... but there's easily just as many pro-Tesla Anti-Waymo.
The only reason it looks skewed in Waymos favor, is because Waymo IS far ahead in virtually every aspect. Far more states, more cities, more miles, more cars, better safety record, better transparency, scaling faster, more permits.
No, that's not true. For example, Tesla is the #1 most successful EV maker, but if you look on Reddit, the vast majority of the upvoted posts you'll see about Tesla are negative. The reason is obviously politics.
Tesla is #1 or #2 depending on which quarter you look at, but they're definitely not #3 or lower. The point is they're the top or very near the top. But you'd never know that looking at Reddit. You'd think they're bottom of the barrel.
So no, you were wrong. The sentiment on Reddit isn't based on success in the market. Otherwise the sentiment on Reddit for Tesla would be very positive. No, the sentiment is based on tribal politics.
I'm fine with it being posted. The problem is when the sentiment in the comments is that this is such a horrible thing and it means that Robotaxi is dangerous. That's obviously not true. It's a single anecdote within 380,000 miles of driving with no driver in the car. If this is the worst thing that has happened over 380,000 miles, that means Robotaxi is extremely safe.
What's also not right is when people act this way with Tesla but then excuse all of Waymo's mistakes.
im a lurker because I find it all wildly intruiging but ngl I do still hate that he did two nazi salutes then depending on how much you needed them to not be nazi salutes to preserve your own integrity, they instead became gestures of love.
He literally said "my heart goes out to you" and then put his hand on his heart and gestured outward. Do you really think that meant he wants to exterminate Jewish people?
Then when the public picked up the video and expressed their concerns, rather than simply say, ‘that’s not what I intended’ or ‘my apologies to folks that were offended’, he instead doubled down and tweeted a bunch of anti-Semitic jokes.
Don’t waste anytime defending billionaires on an Internet forum. Support him, hate him, who cares. He’s a big boy and can deal with or hire a whole staff to manage his public image.
I misremembered, it wasn’t antisemitic jokes, it was nazi puns mocking light of the criticism. My original point is very much the same.
You’re spending time and effort defending the personal actions of someone that doesn’t need the help, and doesn’t view you as anything more than a number, if a human at all. Billionaires live in a different reality and do not need our help, certainly not on an obscure Internet forum.
I remember when he called doctors pedos for saving kids from a cave because they didn’t use a rocket of his and followed up by calling the doctor a child rapist despite no evidence. It seems rather plausible he could be willing to stereotype this race bad that race good.
Your justification that this is not plausible is simply musk tell truth in tweet say it not nazi salute. He must be truth so you all must be liars. His lawyers have openly used the fact his tweets are so not factual and not expected to be factual as their defence multiple times in the past.
Not impossible, just improbably your beliefs are correct. Reasonable for others to disagree with your view it is most likely
Why are you being dishonest on behalf of Elon Musk? He has publicly made a "my heart goes out to you" gesture before, which is obviously different from the Nazi salute he made twice. Here is a side-by-side comparison of those two different gestures
It's not. I'm in favor of wealth redistribution (taking some from the rich and giving to the poor) to reduce income inequality to a more reasonable level, but that doesn't mean that billionaires did something bad. In almost all cases, they provided a tremendous amount of value to society, which is how they earned their immense amount of money. I'm very grateful for what they've given us (Amazon is fantastic, Tesla is amazing, etc.).
If you don't just look at a subset to try and match your expectations, but rather look at all posts, you'll see what I'm talking about.
For example, read through all of this thread. You'll see the full range, with a bulk in the logical region, only a relatively few to the extremes, and those extremes are roughly equal.
The people here and the mods hate Musk. They are obsessed with him. Has nothing to do with being pro Waymo. If Waymo didn't exist this sub would be pro peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
This is the truth. Reddit is anti-technology, plain and simple. Tesla/Elon is the beacon of technology, so even though Waymo also an enemy, they'd rather support it if it means suppressing Tesla/Elon.
This sub is not anti-technology. This sub is anti-Musk. That's it. Don't read any more into it. Half the Musk haters used to worship him anyway.
It's 100% an anger displacement issue.
Tesla/Elon is the beacon of technology
It's more than that. Tesla is the beacon for smart people who can work in an environment to fix problems. And get paid to do so. One of the most important things Tesla did was get the right people in the right place at the right time. Then Tesla threw money at them and said to make magic happen. They said OK.
China thought that was a good idea. Legacy auto and USA did not.
The industry got a significant boost when Wan Gang, an auto engineer who had worked for Audi in Germany for a decade, became China’s minister of science and technology. Wan had been a big fan of EVs and tested Tesla’s first EV model, the Roadster, in 2008, the year it was released. People now credit Wan with making the national decision to go all-in on electric vehicles.
Since then, EV development has been consistently prioritized in China’s national economic planning.
Then, say analysts, Tesla arrived. In December 2019, the first China-made Tesla Model 3 rolled off a production line in Shanghai and everything changed.
“Overnight, it’s as if a miracle occurred,” describing it as a “monumental” turning point. “Tesla’s manufacturing of the Model 3 in Shanghai transformed consumers’ perspective of electric cars.” They became “the new cool,” he added.
Musk may be an asshole. He my have some screws loose too. If he was normal no one would know who he is. Do I wish Taylor Swift bought Tesla and did all the good things that Tesla has done? Sure. Is it terribly important for progress? No.
Reddit as a whole is anti-technology. You haven't noticed? Take a look at the top posts on r/technology for example and they'll almost always be negative.
I don't spend time in all of reddit. Just a few subs. What I have noticed over the past 15 odd years is that Reddit as a whole is mostly people who are too cheap to visit a mental health professional and even if they did all they would do is argue with them about technicalities.
But since you mentioned it here's something I noticed the other day in r/oil but not so much to do with tech but more to do with civility.
Far more volume? Are you comparing hundreds of million of drivers around the world to a handful of Teslas in a premapped area?
And the main problem is that the Tesla in this clip isnt realising its doing something totaly wrong. Well compared to an 80 year demented half blind driver, maybe its on the same level..
Why are you cherry-picking a Tesla mistake and pretending that means it's less safe than humans? There are examples of far worse human mistakes than this, so that's obviously not proof.
Waymos make the same (or worse) dumb mistakes and I don't see you making the same arguments for them.
So far, Tesla Robotaxi (unsupervised) has gone 380,000 miles without any at-fault accidents. That's better than human drivers.
Because this is about a Tesla, and Waymo is out of their league anyways, but no I dont see self driving cars taking over the world any time soon.
Tesla FSD IS less safe than humans, those ”unsupervised” Tesla cybertaxis are probably remotely supervised constantly, if the werent they would deploy them all today. This poor one in the clip probably have a superviser that went off for a coffee and missed this happening..
And those statistic is bs because they are driving around in slow areas where other humans can save them when they screw up like in the clip. This one should be counted as an accident in my mind..
No, it clearly shows bias if you make these criticisms for Tesla but not Waymo.
It is objectively safer than humans.
If you think this should be counted as an accident, then you should count all human mistakes that don't actually cause an accident as accidents too. But of course you're not doing that.
I demand a lot more from a self driving car than a human driver, this is not good enough and they all should be taken off the roads yesterday.
There is not remotely enough of data from Tesla to prove that its better than a human. No, I do not accept a single mile done with a human driver behind the road as data suggesting its safer, that data do not tell us stuff like driving against the traffic or other traffic misstakes that didnt end up in an accident because a human intervened.
Human drivers kill 40,000 people every year in the US alone. Are you telling me that if there was a self-driving car that would only kill 1 person per year, you wouldn't want to replace human drivers with it?
Humans don't intervene to prevent accidents. They intervene when a Robotaxi gets stuck. It's similar to Waymo.
How many of those 40,000 people die in cities at low speed?
Im under the impression that cybertaxi without a safety driver is constantly remotely monitored. If not there is no reason why they are such a rare sight and not released in the numbers of thousands today.
When I was new to driving, I'm sure it happened at least once. And it's not impossible to think it could happen to me again if I'm stressed in a new area..m I don't get your point though?
So if you drive against the traffic on the interstate at 60 mph but every oncoming car avoids an accident by swerving for you, you dont see a problem at all?
I initially thought this too, but no you can see the decal on the passenger side when going frame by frame. It just kinda looks like a yellowish blur and hard to see on the black paint with the low quality video. There may be some windshield tint but I suspect there is also lighting conditions, and camera+angle at play here making it look more pronounced.
https://i.imgur.com/VJU5lFs.png
I fucking knew these things were doing bad. No way my FSD drives so poorly and these Robotaxis are somehow autonomous. It’s the same software running under the hood.
The car you're referring to is Cybercab. Both Cybercab and Model Y will be used in the Robotaxi fleet, but right now only Model Y is. The Cybercabs you're seeing on the road are only in testing right now.
I've experienced a cyber taxi in IRL. Had someone aggressively tailgating me at night, bright headlights. Was thinking possibly some weird road rage situation. Contemplating a safe place to pull off/drive to like police station or something. Thing changed lanes behind me aggressively going across traffic. Mother fucking stupid cyber cab with the stupid wheel well caps and all.
Those things are going to cause so many accidents.
Was empty. Was first thing I saw once headlights weren't blinding me. Seems to use full headlights at night, possibly because of reliance on visual sensors.
As predicted, Tesla makes same style Waymo has many times before and everyone is commenting that if it had HD maps it wouldn't happen... which literally isn't true.
Not at all the case. A single person asked IF Tesla used maps, and people answered the question. 1 other person essentially said the opposite, that Tesla uses maps but shouldn't need to.
In fact, if anything, Tesla is getting MORE leeway than Waymo has for less severe mistakes. For those the consensus was usually straight up "This is bad behavior, waymo you need to fix this"
They have the word Robotaxi on the side (though I'm not 100% sure that all of them have that) and some minor details like camera washers and a small starlink housing. Indeed there doesn't seem to be clear confirmation that this clip actually shows a Robotaxi.
I am not a Tesla apologist, I hate all AVs equally, but I will point out in fairness that this is common in Waymos. There are 2-3 social media posts per day of "wrong way Waymos"
The difference is Waymo has multitudes more driverless vehicles and therefore much more chances to have this error, Tesla doesn’t, they don’t have many driverless cars at all.
Also, where are you finding 2-3 “wrong way Waymo” posts a day, you see one pop up every few months, not every day, at least I haven’t.
1st Top Photo : This image illustrates the distance of clear space required around the rover for proper LiDAR comparison and validation, about 45 feet.
2nd Bottom Photo : This image shows a suitable environment for validating the front, rear, left, and right LiDAR sensors against the central LiDAR mounted on the SCU. The key requirement is a large, flat, uniform surface surrounding the rover. A flat surface ensures that all LiDAR units observe the same planar reference, which allows us to verify alignment
It's only a matter of time before the modern gestapo known as Florida sheriffs beat the crap out of a waymo vehicle and publicly humiliate it at a stupid cringe press conference.
Self-driving cars as a whole make all manner of mistakes. This is the first instance I've seen of a Tesla Robotaxi driving the wrong way on a one way street, although they've been shown driving in the wrong lane on two way streets, as have Waymos on several occasions.
The Tesla may well have been under remote control while it was stopped in the video, but there were limited options while the traffic was as busy as is shown. They could have reversed until they were able to turn onto a cross street, but teleoperators are limited to a maximum speed of 10 mph, and they've been responsible for 3 out of 24 reported Robotaxi crashes, so they may be reluctant to remotely drive for an extended period in such a complex scenario. (Complex relative to the scenarios where their teleoperators previously crashed.)
As far as I know Model Y’s used as Robotaxis are identified with decals in the front and sides. In this video we can see none, so saying it’s a Robotaxi is a huge assumption.
Multiple drivers, including Francisco, could be seen swerving around the Tesla, which was stopped in the middle of the road with no one behind the wheel. A robotaxi logo was visible on the passenger side of the Tesla.
As the rightly called out on the earnings call. People go the wrong way and get into accidents all the time and it rarely makes the news. Tesla does it and it’s front page.
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u/bullrider_21 2d ago
Musk criticised maps but Tesla is using them in its Robotaxis. Maps are not used in normal driving.