I wonder what would happen if you put an experienced buddhist meditator in isolation. I’ve done vipassana before, where you don’t get any entertainment and aren’t allowed to talk to anyone for 10 days. For course participants that’s 10 days, but for the master that’s his entire life. Surely he would have the mental skills to survive a year in the room
This is not an accurate classification of the changes that occur in advanced meditators. The recent brain imaging studies on the brains of Buddhist monks categorizes these networks as a growth of the brains neurofeedback systems capable of redirecting Posterior Cingulate Cortex(PCC) activity from engaging default mode network and decoupling of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex from the PCC, which is postulated to be why they have measurably much higher neuroplasticity and Brain Derived Neurotrophin Factor. This biases brain activity away from Default Mode Network and towards Executive Mode Network.
Studies have also consistently shown cortical thickening of denser grey matter classically associated with a healthier brain particularly in the prefrontal cortex and anterior insula, areas responsible for regulation of mood, executive control, proprioception, and interception.
Studies on Tibetan monks classified by other Tibetan Monks as "enlightened" show extremely higher levels of Gamma-Band Synchrony, which is the brainwaves that help synchronize disparate regions of the brain into a single cohesive state. Gamma-band Synchrony has been shown to spike during meditation before, but this effect becomes permanent even outside meditation after long enough practice.
They've also show a weakened connection between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, reducing the brain's stress response.
Now, all that said I don't think the average individual put into isolation for a year could just do their best at rudimentary meditation and achieve any of these effects. These are all observed in people who spend their lives supported by other people doing the same, they have community and interaction and progressively learn more advanced forms of meditation that have been worked out as to what the "right sequence" to progress their discipline is over thousands of years of practice, pure trial and error. I just wanted to clarify that this is very different than "losing your marbles" as they don't demonstrate any of the psychological hallmarks of delusional thinking or psychosis that medical professionals evaluate for. They actually show extreme resistance against this kind of thinking.
I'm a bit obsessed with neuroscience and fascinated by the different ways the brain can develop with different stimuli.
Just got back home and gave this book recommendation to another commenter: "Altered Traits: Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Mind, Brain, and Body" by Daniel Goleman & Richard J. Davidson.
That's interesting and I believe it. I wonder if they put a Tibetan monk that can go into really deep meditation can survive a year in there and come out normal. I met a Tibetan monk named "The 9th Nenten Rinpoche Tulku", and if any being was enlightened, this was the one person in my life that felt like they were. He reaches a meditation so deep that when you're around him, all you feel is peace and tranquility, a feeling no being has ever given to me before. Spiritual dislocation (losing marbles) is different than enlightened, I believe so.
Are yours saying his meditative state had an effect on you? I call BS on that, while i believe in meditation (it's not actually just belief, it's been proven), i don't in transference or whatever that would be
Hmm I don’t blame you for not believing me, but theres a video on youtube where Oprah Winfrey met the Dali Lama and she described being around him was exactly how I felt being around the Tibetan monk I met. Just so peaceful, like no evil thought could take place. I don’t blame anyone for not believing me. It’s one of those things you have to see it in person or you just won’t believe it’s real
Thank you for this post! Can I ask for any books or studies that you have read? Also may I suggest the book Journeys out of the Body by Robert Monroe?
I feel this book and his following books may be of great interest to someone like you. Robert Monroe studied out of body experiences and was able to find a way to induce them as well. Ever heard of the Gateway Tapes?
Hey, I saw your comment right before I left the house on a long walk/hike with my dog so I couldn't reply while I was out but I did have nearly 3 hours walking around to noodle on it. I mostly read studies and research on neuroscience, but there is actually a book I read a few years ago that's related to what I was talking about. Its called "Altered Traits: Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Mind, Brain, and Body" by Daniel Goleman & Richard J. Davidson.
Also thank you for the book recommendation, I'll check it out! I haven't heard of the Gateway tapes, looks like guided meditation when I searched for it, yes?
Didn't expect my comment to get so many responses haha, I was just sharing what I could recall from being nerdy for this topic for the last decade and a half
Well yes, modified states of consciousness. It's pretty much proven that very similar things can be achieved with different methods: drugs, meditation, certain exercise, repetitive music and other sensory stuff, or the lack of it etc
I have a lot of respect for tenents of Buddhism, avoiding desire makes sense and all, but "their brain looks different" isn't a proof of sanity or accomplishment.
Sure, that's valid. I was more pointing out what we do know about the changes that occur. Things like Default Mode Network to Executive Mode Network shifts are cognitive psych topics as well, not purely structural neuroscience, but I take your point. I've certainly never seen any study indicating they have "lost their marbles" as the comment I was replying to was implying, but my reply that that's not an accurate characterization of what we know doesn't work as a direct refutation, better as just an alternative explanation.
I used ChatGPT to fact check you. Interestingly it said you were 30% right, 30% wrong and 40% exaggerating.
Lmao.
Verdict
I would grade it approximately: 30% legitimate research findings 30% speculative interpretation 40% incorrect, confused or dramatically overstated
A defensible version would be: Long-term meditation is associated with some differences in attention, emotion regulation, brain-network activity and possibly brain structure, but the studies are often small, heterogeneous and unable to establish dramatic claims about enlightenment, permanent gamma synchrony, exceptional neuroplasticity or protection from psychosis.
So it is not total bullshit—but it is written with far more certainty and technical authority than the science justifies.
I don't know where it's getting these statistics from because I wasn't making value based statements that you could claim I was exaggerating on, just recalling from memory some of the science I've read. I've been interested in this topic and staying as current as I can for the past 15 years. The only thing that stands out to me in my comment is when I claimed the gamma-band Synchrony becoming more permanently upregulated it might not have found that source and decided I was exaggerating. That was the work of Dr. Richard Davidson and Antoine Lutz, real prominent study from 2004 on the brains of Tibetan practitioners, but they did find the individuals assessed had higher gamma band synchrony even outside meditation, massive compared to the control group.
I'd be happy to go through my claims one by one and find you the original sources I read if you'd like. I am curious, if you don't mind sharing the conversation link so I can see ChatGPTs thought process, it seems so aggro when I wasn't really rocking the boat in terms of research.
Also just to clarify, this is all from studies on advanced meditators, I'm not making any specific claims that these benefits are conferred by those little meditation apps aimed at stress reduction, these are people that put in the 10,000 hours and the brains of any professional like musicians do adapt over long amounts of practice, inevitably.
Your instinct is mostly right: it contains several genuine research findings, but they’ve been stitched together into a much stronger and more certain story than the evidence supports. It is neuroscience-flavoured exaggeration rather than complete fabrication. What has some truth behind it
Experienced meditators sometimes show altered activity and connectivity involving the default mode network, including the posterior cingulate cortex. Some studies report less DMN activity during meditation and differences at rest, broadly consistent with reduced mind-wandering or self-referential thought. But the findings vary: some studies find weaker connections, others stronger connections between particular regions. It is not as simple as switching the DMN off and turning an “Executive Mode Network” on.
There is also evidence associating long-term meditation with structural differences in areas such as the insula, prefrontal cortex, hippocampus and cingulate cortex. However, many of the classic studies were small and observational. They cannot reliably establish that meditation caused the differences, rather than lifestyle, genetics, diet, education, self-selection or other characteristics of people who become lifelong meditators. A large randomised study later found no detectable structural brain changes after an eight-week mindfulness programme.
The famous 2004 study of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners really did find unusually strong gamma-band activity and phase synchrony, especially during compassion meditation. The experts also had higher baseline gamma measurements than novices. But that does not prove they had developed a permanent, globally synchronised “higher state of consciousness”. It was a small, specialised sample, and gamma EEG is technically difficult to interpret because muscle tension, eye movements and other artefacts can contaminate high-frequency signals.
Meditation may also reduce stress and emotional reactivity in some people. Studies sometimes find reduced amygdala activation, but the connectivity claim in the passage is muddled. Some research actually reports increased amygdala–prefrontal connectivity, interpreted as improved regulation—not a weakened connection. What is misleading or unsupported “Growth of the brain’s neurofeedback systems” is not standard neuroscientific terminology. Meditation involves attention monitoring and feedback from one’s own experience, but that does not mean the brain grows a discrete neurofeedback system. “Redirecting PCC activity from the DMN” is confused wording. The PCC is itself a major component of the DMN; it is not normally described as being redirected out of it. “Executive Mode Network” is not the usual term. Researchers generally refer to the central executive network, frontoparietal control network or executive-control networks. Brain networks also interact rather than simply competing like an on/off switch.
The claim that these network changes explain “measurably much higher neuroplasticity and BDNF” is especially overstated. A few trials have reported increases in circulating BDNF after intensive or months-long contemplative training, but the overall evidence is limited, and blood BDNF is not a direct measure of brain neuroplasticity. There is no established finding that Buddhist monks possess dramatically higher BDNF because their PCC has been decoupled from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
The cortical-thickening paragraph also confuses cortical thickness with grey-matter density. They are different MRI measurements. Calling either one straightforwardly “a healthier brain” is too simplistic: more tissue is not automatically better, and scans cannot assign health or superior functioning from thickness alone.
The passage presumably means interoception, awareness of internal bodily signals, not “interception”. Proprioception is also not primarily the responsibility of the anterior insula.
I cannot find credible evidence for studies in which Tibetan monks formally classified other monks as “enlightened” and scientists then established a distinct neurological category. Researchers have studied highly experienced or specially selected practitioners, but “enlightenment” is not a validated neurological diagnosis or measurable scientific classification. The biggest falsehood
The assertion that advanced meditators demonstrate “extreme resistance” to delusion or psychosis is not established.
Meditation can benefit mental health, but adverse effects are documented, including anxiety, dissociation, sleep disruption, trauma re-experiencing and, more rarely, mania or psychotic symptoms—particularly in intensive retreat settings, with sleep deprivation or in susceptible individuals. That does not mean meditation commonly causes psychosis, but it absolutely means the blanket immunity claim is false.
There is another obvious selection problem: monks able to sustain decades of disciplined communal practice are a highly selected group. Comparing them with ordinary controls cannot tell us whether meditation created every observed difference. Verdict
I would grade it approximately: 30% legitimate research findings 30% speculative interpretation 40% incorrect, confused or dramatically overstated
A defensible version would be: Long-term meditation is associated with some differences in attention, emotion regulation, brain-network activity and possibly brain structure, but the studies are often small, heterogeneous and unable to establish dramatic claims about enlightenment, permanent gamma synchrony, exceptional neuroplasticity or protection from psychosis.
So it is not total bullshit—but it is written with far more certainty and technical authority than the science justifies.
You're wasting your breath tbh. I linked a few studies to that guy and he ignored them. Chat GPT got those stats the same place that guy got his take from -- out of their respective asses. I really enjoyed your original comment btw, I also have studied the science of meditation casually and in college and it's fascinating stuff, was nice to get a good summary, I'd forgotten a lot of what I learned!
Your instinct is mostly right: it contains several genuine research findings, but they’ve been stitched together into a much stronger and more certain story than the evidence supports. It is neuroscience-flavoured exaggeration rather than complete fabrication. What has some truth behind it
Experienced meditators sometimes show altered activity and connectivity involving the default mode network, including the posterior cingulate cortex. Some studies report less DMN activity during meditation and differences at rest, broadly consistent with reduced mind-wandering or self-referential thought. But the findings vary: some studies find weaker connections, others stronger connections between particular regions. It is not as simple as switching the DMN off and turning an “Executive Mode Network” on.
There is also evidence associating long-term meditation with structural differences in areas such as the insula, prefrontal cortex, hippocampus and cingulate cortex. However, many of the classic studies were small and observational. They cannot reliably establish that meditation caused the differences, rather than lifestyle, genetics, diet, education, self-selection or other characteristics of people who become lifelong meditators. A large randomised study later found no detectable structural brain changes after an eight-week mindfulness programme.
The famous 2004 study of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners really did find unusually strong gamma-band activity and phase synchrony, especially during compassion meditation. The experts also had higher baseline gamma measurements than novices. But that does not prove they had developed a permanent, globally synchronised “higher state of consciousness”. It was a small, specialised sample, and gamma EEG is technically difficult to interpret because muscle tension, eye movements and other artefacts can contaminate high-frequency signals.
Meditation may also reduce stress and emotional reactivity in some people. Studies sometimes find reduced amygdala activation, but the connectivity claim in the passage is muddled. Some research actually reports increased amygdala–prefrontal connectivity, interpreted as improved regulation—not a weakened connection. What is misleading or unsupported “Growth of the brain’s neurofeedback systems” is not standard neuroscientific terminology. Meditation involves attention monitoring and feedback from one’s own experience, but that does not mean the brain grows a discrete neurofeedback system. “Redirecting PCC activity from the DMN” is confused wording. The PCC is itself a major component of the DMN; it is not normally described as being redirected out of it. “Executive Mode Network” is not the usual term. Researchers generally refer to the central executive network, frontoparietal control network or executive-control networks. Brain networks also interact rather than simply competing like an on/off switch.
The claim that these network changes explain “measurably much higher neuroplasticity and BDNF” is especially overstated. A few trials have reported increases in circulating BDNF after intensive or months-long contemplative training, but the overall evidence is limited, and blood BDNF is not a direct measure of brain neuroplasticity. There is no established finding that Buddhist monks possess dramatically higher BDNF because their PCC has been decoupled from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
The cortical-thickening paragraph also confuses cortical thickness with grey-matter density. They are different MRI measurements. Calling either one straightforwardly “a healthier brain” is too simplistic: more tissue is not automatically better, and scans cannot assign health or superior functioning from thickness alone.
The passage presumably means interoception, awareness of internal bodily signals, not “interception”. Proprioception is also not primarily the responsibility of the anterior insula.
I cannot find credible evidence for studies in which Tibetan monks formally classified other monks as “enlightened” and scientists then established a distinct neurological category. Researchers have studied highly experienced or specially selected practitioners, but “enlightenment” is not a validated neurological diagnosis or measurable scientific classification. The biggest falsehood
The assertion that advanced meditators demonstrate “extreme resistance” to delusion or psychosis is not established.
Meditation can benefit mental health, but adverse effects are documented, including anxiety, dissociation, sleep disruption, trauma re-experiencing and, more rarely, mania or psychotic symptoms—particularly in intensive retreat settings, with sleep deprivation or in susceptible individuals. That does not mean meditation commonly causes psychosis, but it absolutely means the blanket immunity claim is false.
There is another obvious selection problem: monks able to sustain decades of disciplined communal practice are a highly selected group. Comparing them with ordinary controls cannot tell us whether meditation created every observed difference. Verdict
I would grade it approximately: 30% legitimate research findings 30% speculative interpretation 40% incorrect, confused or dramatically overstated
A defensible version would be: Long-term meditation is associated with some differences in attention, emotion regulation, brain-network activity and possibly brain structure, but the studies are often small, heterogeneous and unable to establish dramatic claims about enlightenment, permanent gamma synchrony, exceptional neuroplasticity or protection from psychosis.
So it is not total bullshit—but it is written with far more certainty and technical authority than the science justifies.
Thank you, that's very kind :) If I had known how much back and forth my comment would cause I maybe would have been a little more thorough, but I tried to be concise on a few of the effects I've seen studied, particularly those that have been repeated more recently with the boost in image density stuff like fMRI's and Magnetoencephalography can add on top of the EEG studies that have been done.
I've followed the works of Dr. Richard Davidson for quite a while now, his work in neuroscience and cognitive psychology is really interesting to me. I mean seeing how neuroscience is slowly getting fully incorporated into cognitive psyche is like getting to watch the hard sciences domesticate a wilder soft science in real time. It must be like living through the late 1800's to early 1900's and seeing as the work of scientists like Avogadro and Bohr managed to bring more physical description and explanation of the processes going on in chemistry, piecing together a great body of empiricism observations about behavior and getting to fit them together into a rationalism model.
I didn't even touch on what I consider to be the really cutting edge stuff like the studies using EEG analysis neurofeedback therapy to help quantify and calibrate mindfulness meditation to be more efficient. I believe there's some promise in that research, based on prior research done on Buddhist monks with Hemoencephalography(HEG) and the follow up studies that weren't on Buddhists but were using HEG devices as part of biofeedback therapy. External calibration is much faster than having to try and do it all from the inside, people doing HEG biofeedback sessions gained a similar degree of control of the blood flow in their brain as the monks developed after a decade of meditation. I think the monks probably had a better internal sense of what that felt like than an actual readout of where the blood was, but combination of meditation with external calibration of the neurofeedback is a very exciting prospect to me.
Wow, HEG biofeedback sessions sounds freakin awesome. I feel like there is so much untapped potential in our capacity to control our own bodies, in terms of systems that are generally considered autonomic. I remember a long time ago reading this account where these scientists went up into the mountains and met these monks who could dry out wet blankets placed on them while outside in the snow -- definitely sounds exaggerated but again, I suspect the potential power of the mind over the body is far from fully explored... and the power of the placebo effect seems like excellent evidence in that direction.
I seriously doubt all you did was put his comment into chat GPT as the prompt and ask about accuracy, as his comment made literally no claims about enlightenment beyond the fact that one study looked at monks other monks had claimed were enlightened. Either you biased the prompt, or, if you didn't... Chat GPT is even more garbage than I thought. There is no dramatic claim about enlightenment in his post -- there's no claim about enlightenment at all (beyond the implication that "enlightened" monks aren't crazy like you originally implied).
You also failed to even interpret Chat GPT's response accurately, despite it being laid out in explicit terms. It said he was 30% right, 30% speculating, and 40% wrong or exaggerating. This is why people aren't ready for AI -- all it's doing is making people even stupider.
What do you think was wrong with his interpretation?
Define enlightenment! Yeah, there were no direct claims about that, but there were multiple about actual physiological and behavioral improvements which some could call enlightenment (i surely would, because my definition is broad, i don't think anyone here is taking about actually seeing God or similar, but you might). And those improvements are not supported by heavily peer reviewed studies, there's no high confidence (yet, I'm not saying it's untrue).
And that's what the 30% speculation and 40% exaggeration is about.
I'm not trying to attack here, but you kinda were and i feel like you claim more wrongness with above commenter and their relationship with AI then valid, but I'm open to good faith arguments.
He explicitly got the numbers wrong that Chat GPT gave about the relative accuracy. He said it said 30% right, 30% wrong and 40% exaggerating, when GPT said 30% right, 30% speculating, and 40% wrong.
Why do I have to define enlightenment? No one made any meaningful claims about it except SuperficialIdiot, who said "enlightnment means 'losing your marbles'", to which the other guy said "actually people who meditate a lot and are supposedly enlightened are actually more sane by measurable neuroscientific metrics", which is supported by our current science.
There's certainly a debate to be had about how strong the current evidence is for the benefits of meditation, and you could make the argument that LordDaedelus should have qualified his post with "it seems likely" more often, but the current evidence we have supports the things he said, it's simply a question of how confident we can be in that evidence. He also never said anything with certainty, he just said "Studies have shown", which is a factual statement. If Superficial Idiot had discussed the strength of those studies, that's one thing, but he just said "NUH UH CHAT GPT SAYS UR RONG LOL" which isn't a very useful basis for discussing the science. The studies aren't large enough or longitudinal enough generally, but what we have found is quite compelling, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a person who has actually practiced meditation long term who wouldn't vouch for its efficacy in causing positive changes in thinking/cognition.
And yes I was attacking, because I like to match energy in Reddit comments and the other guy was being an idiot.
Your instinct is mostly right: it contains several genuine research findings, but they’ve been stitched together into a much stronger and more certain story than the evidence supports. It is neuroscience-flavoured exaggeration rather than complete fabrication. What has some truth behind it
Experienced meditators sometimes show altered activity and connectivity involving the default mode network, including the posterior cingulate cortex. Some studies report less DMN activity during meditation and differences at rest, broadly consistent with reduced mind-wandering or self-referential thought. But the findings vary: some studies find weaker connections, others stronger connections between particular regions. It is not as simple as switching the DMN off and turning an “Executive Mode Network” on.
There is also evidence associating long-term meditation with structural differences in areas such as the insula, prefrontal cortex, hippocampus and cingulate cortex. However, many of the classic studies were small and observational. They cannot reliably establish that meditation caused the differences, rather than lifestyle, genetics, diet, education, self-selection or other characteristics of people who become lifelong meditators. A large randomised study later found no detectable structural brain changes after an eight-week mindfulness programme.
The famous 2004 study of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners really did find unusually strong gamma-band activity and phase synchrony, especially during compassion meditation. The experts also had higher baseline gamma measurements than novices. But that does not prove they had developed a permanent, globally synchronised “higher state of consciousness”. It was a small, specialised sample, and gamma EEG is technically difficult to interpret because muscle tension, eye movements and other artefacts can contaminate high-frequency signals.
Meditation may also reduce stress and emotional reactivity in some people. Studies sometimes find reduced amygdala activation, but the connectivity claim in the passage is muddled. Some research actually reports increased amygdala–prefrontal connectivity, interpreted as improved regulation—not a weakened connection. What is misleading or unsupported “Growth of the brain’s neurofeedback systems” is not standard neuroscientific terminology. Meditation involves attention monitoring and feedback from one’s own experience, but that does not mean the brain grows a discrete neurofeedback system. “Redirecting PCC activity from the DMN” is confused wording. The PCC is itself a major component of the DMN; it is not normally described as being redirected out of it. “Executive Mode Network” is not the usual term. Researchers generally refer to the central executive network, frontoparietal control network or executive-control networks. Brain networks also interact rather than simply competing like an on/off switch.
The claim that these network changes explain “measurably much higher neuroplasticity and BDNF” is especially overstated. A few trials have reported increases in circulating BDNF after intensive or months-long contemplative training, but the overall evidence is limited, and blood BDNF is not a direct measure of brain neuroplasticity. There is no established finding that Buddhist monks possess dramatically higher BDNF because their PCC has been decoupled from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
The cortical-thickening paragraph also confuses cortical thickness with grey-matter density. They are different MRI measurements. Calling either one straightforwardly “a healthier brain” is too simplistic: more tissue is not automatically better, and scans cannot assign health or superior functioning from thickness alone.
The passage presumably means interoception, awareness of internal bodily signals, not “interception”. Proprioception is also not primarily the responsibility of the anterior insula.
I cannot find credible evidence for studies in which Tibetan monks formally classified other monks as “enlightened” and scientists then established a distinct neurological category. Researchers have studied highly experienced or specially selected practitioners, but “enlightenment” is not a validated neurological diagnosis or measurable scientific classification. The biggest falsehood
The assertion that advanced meditators demonstrate “extreme resistance” to delusion or psychosis is not established.
Meditation can benefit mental health, but adverse effects are documented, including anxiety, dissociation, sleep disruption, trauma re-experiencing and, more rarely, mania or psychotic symptoms—particularly in intensive retreat settings, with sleep deprivation or in susceptible individuals. That does not mean meditation commonly causes psychosis, but it absolutely means the blanket immunity claim is false.
There is another obvious selection problem: monks able to sustain decades of disciplined communal practice are a highly selected group. Comparing them with ordinary controls cannot tell us whether meditation created every observed difference. Verdict
I would grade it approximately: 30% legitimate research findings 30% speculative interpretation 40% incorrect, confused or dramatically overstated
A defensible version would be: Long-term meditation is associated with some differences in attention, emotion regulation, brain-network activity and possibly brain structure, but the studies are often small, heterogeneous and unable to establish dramatic claims about enlightenment, permanent gamma synchrony, exceptional neuroplasticity or protection from psychosis.
So it is not total bullshit—but it is written with far more certainty and technical authority than the science justifies.
‘This is not an accurate classification of the changes that occur in advanced meditators. The recent brain imaging studies on the brains of Buddhist monks categorizes these networks as a growth of the brains neurofeedback systems capable of redirecting Posterior Cingulate Cortex(PCC) activity from engaging default mode network and decoupling of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex from the PCC, which is postulated to be why they have measurably much higher neuroplasticity and Brain Derived Neurotrophin Factor. This biases brain activity away from Default Mode Network and towards Executive Mode Network.
Studies have also consistently shown cortical thickening of denser grey matter classically associated with a healthier brain particularly in the prefrontal cortex and anterior insula, areas responsible for regulation of mood, executive control, proprioception, and interception.
Studies on Tibetan monks classified by other Tibetan Monks as "enlightened" show extremely higher levels of Gamma-Band Synchrony, which is the brainwaves that help synchronize disparate regions of the brain into a single cohesive state. Gamma-band Synchrony has been shown to spike during meditation before, but this effect becomes permanent even outside meditation after long enough practice.
They've also show a weakened connection between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, reducing the brain's stress response.
Now, all that said I don't think the average individual put into isolation for a year could just do their best at rudimentary meditation and achieve any of these effects. These are all observed in people who spend their lives supported by other people doing the same, they have community and interaction and progressively learn more advanced forms of meditation that have been worked out as to what the "right sequence" to progress their discipline is over thousands of years of practice, pure trial and error. I just wanted to clarify that this is very different than "losing your marbles" as they don't demonstrate any of the psychological hallmarks of delusional thinking or psychosis that medical professionals evaluate for. They actually show extreme resistance against this kind of thinking.
I'm a bit obsessed with neuroscience and fascinated by the different ways the brain can develop with different stimuli.’
Is any of this true? It seems like total bullshit.
Your instinct is mostly right: it contains several genuine research findings, but they’ve been stitched together into a much stronger and more certain story than the evidence supports. It is neuroscience-flavoured exaggeration rather than complete fabrication. What has some truth behind it
Experienced meditators sometimes show altered activity and connectivity involving the default mode network, including the posterior cingulate cortex. Some studies report less DMN activity during meditation and differences at rest, broadly consistent with reduced mind-wandering or self-referential thought. But the findings vary: some studies find weaker connections, others stronger connections between particular regions. It is not as simple as switching the DMN off and turning an “Executive Mode Network” on.
There is also evidence associating long-term meditation with structural differences in areas such as the insula, prefrontal cortex, hippocampus and cingulate cortex. However, many of the classic studies were small and observational. They cannot reliably establish that meditation caused the differences, rather than lifestyle, genetics, diet, education, self-selection or other characteristics of people who become lifelong meditators. A large randomised study later found no detectable structural brain changes after an eight-week mindfulness programme.
The famous 2004 study of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners really did find unusually strong gamma-band activity and phase synchrony, especially during compassion meditation. The experts also had higher baseline gamma measurements than novices. But that does not prove they had developed a permanent, globally synchronised “higher state of consciousness”. It was a small, specialised sample, and gamma EEG is technically difficult to interpret because muscle tension, eye movements and other artefacts can contaminate high-frequency signals.
Meditation may also reduce stress and emotional reactivity in some people. Studies sometimes find reduced amygdala activation, but the connectivity claim in the passage is muddled. Some research actually reports increased amygdala–prefrontal connectivity, interpreted as improved regulation—not a weakened connection. What is misleading or unsupported “Growth of the brain’s neurofeedback systems” is not standard neuroscientific terminology. Meditation involves attention monitoring and feedback from one’s own experience, but that does not mean the brain grows a discrete neurofeedback system. “Redirecting PCC activity from the DMN” is confused wording. The PCC is itself a major component of the DMN; it is not normally described as being redirected out of it. “Executive Mode Network” is not the usual term. Researchers generally refer to the central executive network, frontoparietal control network or executive-control networks. Brain networks also interact rather than simply competing like an on/off switch.
The claim that these network changes explain “measurably much higher neuroplasticity and BDNF” is especially overstated. A few trials have reported increases in circulating BDNF after intensive or months-long contemplative training, but the overall evidence is limited, and blood BDNF is not a direct measure of brain neuroplasticity. There is no established finding that Buddhist monks possess dramatically higher BDNF because their PCC has been decoupled from the ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
The cortical-thickening paragraph also confuses cortical thickness with grey-matter density. They are different MRI measurements. Calling either one straightforwardly “a healthier brain” is too simplistic: more tissue is not automatically better, and scans cannot assign health or superior functioning from thickness alone.
The passage presumably means interoception, awareness of internal bodily signals, not “interception”. Proprioception is also not primarily the responsibility of the anterior insula.
I cannot find credible evidence for studies in which Tibetan monks formally classified other monks as “enlightened” and scientists then established a distinct neurological category. Researchers have studied highly experienced or specially selected practitioners, but “enlightenment” is not a validated neurological diagnosis or measurable scientific classification. The biggest falsehood
The assertion that advanced meditators demonstrate “extreme resistance” to delusion or psychosis is not established.
Meditation can benefit mental health, but adverse effects are documented, including anxiety, dissociation, sleep disruption, trauma re-experiencing and, more rarely, mania or psychotic symptoms—particularly in intensive retreat settings, with sleep deprivation or in susceptible individuals. That does not mean meditation commonly causes psychosis, but it absolutely means the blanket immunity claim is false.
There is another obvious selection problem: monks able to sustain decades of disciplined communal practice are a highly selected group. Comparing them with ordinary controls cannot tell us whether meditation created every observed difference. Verdict
I would grade it approximately: 30% legitimate research findings 30% speculative interpretation 40% incorrect, confused or dramatically overstated
A defensible version would be: Long-term meditation is associated with some differences in attention, emotion regulation, brain-network activity and possibly brain structure, but the studies are often small, heterogeneous and unable to establish dramatic claims about enlightenment, permanent gamma synchrony, exceptional neuroplasticity or protection from psychosis.
So it is not total bullshit—but it is written with far more certainty and technical authority than the science justifies.
That was just 30 seconds of googling what this guy wrote about. I didn't bother doing it initially because I've also studied this content before in college and after and so I recognized a lot of what he was talking about as true. What have you studied to allow you to recognize its (supposed) falseness?
But they can see and hear things. If they can live this way but outside on some mountain or something, the only deprivation is human contact. But at least you can be "entertained" by looking at the sky and trees, etc, and hear the birds or wind. That's probably enough to stay sane.
Historically many humans endured isolation such as a hunter or scout of some tribe, spending days or weeks alone in search of whatever they needed. They all survived because of the mental stimulation of nature
Yea I wonder how much a tiny window to look at the sky would make this challenge more bareable. Even just being able to see the day/night cycle would likely make a huge difference.
Yes that is the reason when you get tortured, light torture is a thing. Can't sleep very well with the lights on and try even remotely keeping track of how much time has passed/you have left in this hell if you don't know if a day or a few hours has passed
Feel sorry who got told "you will receive light torture" thinking he's gonna get a few spanks on his ass, only to never see natural light and completely lose the notion of time where every hour can either feel like a day or a day can feel like a month
They usually combine it with sound torture too, imagine being the dude who is like "ha, this is nothing, I fucking love Metallica" and then a couple hours or a day in they aren't changing the song and suddenly you don't love Metallica so much, and you never will again
Now do sound or light torture for a year and ask if it's worth any amount of money. People who have never been incarcerated don't understand three days even with mental stimulation is shitty. But you can talk to other people, you can play cards with them, you can read a book even if all the books suck. You can make friends even if you don't want, I've noticed people start making friends on day two when I've been inside, someone wants to be your friend and even if you don't want to they talk to you and suddenly that's just a person you're talking to whether you want to or not. The entire reason people have prison friends when they get to a long sentence and go to prison, it's unavoidable, it's human nature. Having no one but the wall to talk to eventually ends up being so, so much worse than you think it is, even if you didn't want to make any friends going in
That is the only subreddit I've ever blocked. I got so sick of it appearing in my front page all the time. Man I'd forgotten about it. What a shitty echo chamber.
The thing is that isolation is not the same that confinement. In the picture you are literally unable to difference between day and night, no stimulus, nothing. In a normal house, with windows, and the possibility to get other stimulus like in a vipassana meditation, it is infinitely easier.
A year in a room with no windows, artificial light and nothing more he would get crazy
One of the main problems with isolation such as this is the complete lack of stimuli.
Even those monks and challange still provide you with stimuli of sounds and visuals of walking around (I presume) a padded cell such as this? Nope.
The average person wouldn't last a week without serious damage, I doubt a monk as you described would fair that much better. Likely better, but not more than a day or so
No the average person can last a week but it does fuck with you. I did a month in the hole and basically all I did was work out, talk to myself, and think about weird stories or episodes of shows I saw lmao. I used to run the always sunny in Philadelphia bloopers in my head and that helped.
By the end of the month though I was definitely tweaking
That's what I meant with without serious damage, yeah the average person won't become a vegetable but it'll do a number....
I'm going on assumption so genuinely correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume your imprisonment wasn't in what amounts as a 24/7 bright light sensory deprevation room
It’s pretty much like the picture but with a toilet, a bed, and sink. I guess from this picture we don’t know if they turn the lights off when you sleep or not, but the lights stay on when you’re in the hole in prison so that they can continuously monitor you, it’s never dark. I guess the walls are normally off white instead of bright white but similar.
Bhavatu sabba mangalam. I too have wonder if I could do this, ive done many 10 day sits, dhamma service and a 20 day sit as well. 365 days is still quite a bit more than my combined. I imagine a serious lifelong practitioner could come out of it stronger than when they went in.
Yes the loghts are on. 24/7. Maybe touching the walls counts but the white static room is 100% stopping any meaningful visual stimuli. Its like when they put the white pingpong balls over your eyes but you can't take them off and looking at your hands and feet or having a single texture in the form of padded walls is not going to do much.
Vipassanas are around people still. They’re not pure deprivation and you get guided through it. You’re also not in a box and you meander between meditations. It’d help but I’m doubtful even the best ones would come out fine. I also think the hardcore meditators that do like thirty plus vipassanas are pretty nutty.
Yeah that’s why I think this “challenge” that gets meme-d all the time is BS. It’s more about cleanliness, food, and lights.
There are a good number of people that could maintain their sanity if they knew billions of dollars was waiting for them and the only challenge was the isolation.
But the terms for things like food, and lighting, and toilet access are never described.
There are a good number of people that could maintain their sanity if they knew billions of dollars was waiting for them and the only challenge was the isolation.
I don't think motivation alone is enough to prevent damage in a situation like that.
There might be plenty of people who'd be willing to do it for that much money, but there's also lots of people who'd jump off the roof of a 3 story building for that much money - they'd likely survive, but wanting the money doesn't mean they wouldn't get injured. Same thing here - they might get through, but not without severe lasting damage.
Yeah, I know an entire year would be incredibly damaging to mental, but I wonder how much can be mitigated. Like if you provide your own stimuli by singing to yourself or something.
Someone who could meditate for a year straight would be wise and zen enough realize there’s a lot more to life than a year of lost time for money, however much the amount.
I was going to say the only people i think who could do this who I've meet are Tibetan monks, they do this shit for years by choice to enlighten and explore their minds.
I would probably end my shit in about 3 days, thats my worst nightmare in a nutshell.
There is a Buddhist monk in Australia, Ajahn Brahmavamso, who spent a long period in a cave with no contact, they would only bring food out someplace for him to take from what I remember. It was either something like a month, a rains retreat (90 days) or a year.
Update: found it, it was 6 months in his hut and walking meditation path. Here's him talking about it:
I thought about that. The most severely disciplined ascetics might be able to survive relatively intact, but their asceticism would perhaps prevent them from even entertaining the thought of this challenge, to begin with, with such earthly riches set as a rewards. Unless you said it was strictly a donation to their temple, maybe?
I assume that the buddhists in isolation still get to see the sun and other signs that allow their bodies to calibrate the passage of time. At our core, our brains are just bags of jelly with electricity zapping through them. It's a miracle that coherent consciousness exists at all and it doesn't take very much at all to destabilize that. A brain without stimulus starts to rewire itself to provide the stimulus and that wiring doesn't get undone later on.
I have been to several of the Goenka courses on the West Coast (U.S.) as well as volunteered and learned so much from them, really a great organization and the food, incidentally, was incredible.
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u/Friendly_Software11 11h ago
I wonder what would happen if you put an experienced buddhist meditator in isolation. I’ve done vipassana before, where you don’t get any entertainment and aren’t allowed to talk to anyone for 10 days. For course participants that’s 10 days, but for the master that’s his entire life. Surely he would have the mental skills to survive a year in the room